OT: Why I hate political threads

On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:50:46 +0100, LRod <[email protected]> wrote:

>Before anyone jumps me for my hypocrisy for posting in two threads

<snip off for brevity>

I too regretted postings in the same O.T. My sincere apology to all netters
here. Let me continue to lurk and post occasionally as I have done in the past.

Bye

Amen, brother, sort of. I haven't been wading through the political
threads since the first day. I admit, I did waste a little time there
the first day. I do think it's inappropriate to fill a box called
rec.woodworking with all this extraneous stuff. Must be a place where
it's expected, where it belongs. Let's get back to the sawdust.

bob g.

LRod wrote:

> Before anyone jumps me for my hypocrisy for posting in two threads
> currently running on the wreck, let me say that I regret my
> participation in those threads, but solely because I don't believe
> these threads belong here, whether they are labeled "Off Topic" or
> not. Justifying a post simply by labeling it "Off Topic" is akin to
> qualifying a racial or other odious slur by following it up with "just
> kidding." It's still odious and it's wrong.
>
> Here's why I hate the political threads. I have spent a number of
> years on the wreck. I participate both here and on other woodworking
> fora on the internet on a regular basis. I have personally met dozens
> of fellow woodworkers from all over the country; a feat unthinkable
> before the 'net. Virtually all of the people that I've met have been
> people that I would be comfortable with in my house. I would enjoy
> conversing with them about woodworking and other topics of mutual
> interest.
>
> When two (or more) people sit face to face it is almost unheard of for
> one of them to lean forward and say something anathema to the other's
> point of view; political, religious, or otherwise. I can't imagine
> someone doing that. It would be rude. It would be the height of
> inappropriate behavior. It would violate all rules of society.
>
> Of all of the people I've met as described, I can honestly say I don't
> know the political inclinations of any of them. I didn't ask; they
> didn't tell. I don't want to know. And apparently they felt the same,
> because at the end of the day, they had not asked, either. That's not
> to say I don't have some inklings or suspicions, but I've not wanted
> to follow up to confirm.
>
> The reason for that is I've seen too much lying, muckraking,
> prevarication, misinformation, mudslinging, unbelievable distortion of
> facts, all to political ends, for me to respect anyone that I believe
> is embracing those techniques and using them to further their
> particular ends. And I don't want to not respect the people I've
> become friends with. It hurts me to see someone whom I appreciate for
> their knowledge and experience in a particular area of woodworking
> (the reason I'm here) line up on the other side of what I believe.
>
> In fact, I haven't been able to help but develop a list of wreckers
> who I wouldn't share a broken tool with, much less pleasant discourse;
> all because they couldn't contain their opinions on subjects that
> shouldn't be aired in a common interest forum for which those subjects
> would be off-topic.
>
> Unfortunately, the anonymity behind which all who choose to can hide
> on the internet removes the constraints with which society holds a
> person with regard to his behavior.
>
> Moreover, typing vitriol is virtually risk free as opposed to spewing
> it in person at the risk of a bloody nose. It's no surprise to me that
> we see so much of it on the internet. I'm not saying there's no place
> for it on the 'net; I know of at least a couple of "flame" newsgroups
> and several political ones where that is the appropriate medium.
>
> I just think that the wreck is not one of them, and I don't want to
> find out about my friends' feet of clay. And that works across the
> spectrum; I'm sure there must be someone out there who is embarrassed
> about the way they've learned I feel.
>
> Anyway, I expressed regret about joining the mob and its mentality and
> I meant it. And here is my pledge. No more will I engage in political
> (or other divisive) threads. It is not good for me, it is not good for
> my friends, it is not good for the wreck. The opinions expressed
> aren't going to change anyone's mind; it's naive for anyone to think
> so. That probably includes this one.
>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

I'm with ya!
Dave

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Before anyone jumps me for my hypocrisy for posting in two threads
> currently running on the wreck, let me say that I regret my
> participation in those threads, but solely because I don't believe
> these threads belong here, whether they are labeled "Off Topic" or
> not. Justifying a post simply by labeling it "Off Topic" is akin to
> qualifying a racial or other odious slur by following it up with "just
> kidding." It's still odious and it's wrong.
>
> Here's why I hate the political threads. I have spent a number of
> years on the wreck. I participate both here and on other woodworking
> fora on the internet on a regular basis. I have personally met dozens
> of fellow woodworkers from all over the country; a feat unthinkable
> before the 'net. Virtually all of the people that I've met have been
> people that I would be comfortable with in my house. I would enjoy
> conversing with them about woodworking and other topics of mutual
> interest.
>
> When two (or more) people sit face to face it is almost unheard of for
> one of them to lean forward and say something anathema to the other's
> point of view; political, religious, or otherwise. I can't imagine
> someone doing that. It would be rude. It would be the height of
> inappropriate behavior. It would violate all rules of society.
>
> Of all of the people I've met as described, I can honestly say I don't
> know the political inclinations of any of them. I didn't ask; they
> didn't tell. I don't want to know. And apparently they felt the same,
> because at the end of the day, they had not asked, either. That's not
> to say I don't have some inklings or suspicions, but I've not wanted
> to follow up to confirm.
>
> The reason for that is I've seen too much lying, muckraking,
> prevarication, misinformation, mudslinging, unbelievable distortion of
> facts, all to political ends, for me to respect anyone that I believe
> is embracing those techniques and using them to further their
> particular ends. And I don't want to not respect the people I've
> become friends with. It hurts me to see someone whom I appreciate for
> their knowledge and experience in a particular area of woodworking
> (the reason I'm here) line up on the other side of what I believe.
>
> In fact, I haven't been able to help but develop a list of wreckers
> who I wouldn't share a broken tool with, much less pleasant discourse;
> all because they couldn't contain their opinions on subjects that
> shouldn't be aired in a common interest forum for which those subjects
> would be off-topic.
>
> Unfortunately, the anonymity behind which all who choose to can hide
> on the internet removes the constraints with which society holds a
> person with regard to his behavior.
>
> Moreover, typing vitriol is virtually risk free as opposed to spewing
> it in person at the risk of a bloody nose. It's no surprise to me that
> we see so much of it on the internet. I'm not saying there's no place
> for it on the 'net; I know of at least a couple of "flame" newsgroups
> and several political ones where that is the appropriate medium.
>
> I just think that the wreck is not one of them, and I don't want to
> find out about my friends' feet of clay. And that works across the
> spectrum; I'm sure there must be someone out there who is embarrassed
> about the way they've learned I feel.
>
> Anyway, I expressed regret about joining the mob and its mentality and
> I meant it. And here is my pledge. No more will I engage in political
> (or other divisive) threads. It is not good for me, it is not good for
> my friends, it is not good for the wreck. The opinions expressed
> aren't going to change anyone's mind; it's naive for anyone to think
> so. That probably includes this one.
>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

* Topicality is always topical *

LRod wrote:

> Before anyone jumps me for my hypocrisy for posting in two
> threads currently running on the wreck, let me say that I
> regret my participation in those threads, but solely because I
> don't believe these threads belong here, whether they are
> labeled "Off Topic" or not. Justifying a post simply by
> labeling it "Off Topic" is akin to qualifying a racial or
> other odious slur by following it up with "just kidding." It's
> still odious and it's wrong.

In theory, of course, you're absolutely right. In practice, one
of the important aspects of "the wreck" is that it's evolved into
a community of persons who share some level of mutual respect -
based primarily on woodworking skills/experience; but also on a
lot of other factors. We're not really complete strangers to one
another.

Off-topic discussions are nearly inevitable between people who
share common interests and respect one another. Hidden in these
conditions is the reason that wreck regulars don't take the
off-topic discussions off to alt.talk.politics (or wherever).

Labeling a topic "Off Topic" isn't a justification at all. I tend
to think of it as a courtesy that facilitates filtering out
messages that aren't topical to woodworking - while providing an
expanded communication channel between community members.

> Here's why I hate the political threads. I have spent a number
> of years on the wreck. I participate both here and on other
> woodworking fora on the internet on a regular basis. I have
> personally met dozens of fellow woodworkers from all over the
> country; a feat unthinkable before the 'net. Virtually all of
> the people that I've met have been people that I would be
> comfortable with in my house. I would enjoy conversing with
> them about woodworking and other topics of mutual interest.
>
> When two (or more) people sit face to face it is almost
> unheard of for one of them to lean forward and say something
> anathema to the other's point of view; political, religious,
> or otherwise. I can't imagine someone doing that. It would be
> rude. It would be the height of inappropriate behavior. It
> would violate all rules of society.
>
> Of all of the people I've met as described, I can honestly say
> I don't know the political inclinations of any of them. I
> didn't ask; they didn't tell. I don't want to know. And
> apparently they felt the same, because at the end of the day,
> they had not asked, either. That's not to say I don't have
> some inklings or suspicions, but I've not wanted to follow up
> to confirm.
>
> The reason for that is I've seen too much lying, muckraking,
> prevarication, misinformation, mudslinging, unbelievable
> distortion of facts, all to political ends, for me to respect
> anyone that I believe is embracing those techniques and using
> them to further their particular ends. And I don't want to not
> respect the people I've become friends with. It hurts me to
> see someone whom I appreciate for their knowledge and
> experience in a particular area of woodworking (the reason I'm
> here) line up on the other side of what I believe.

I think you're really talking about two different things here -
at least I hope you are. I think we could all agree that lying,
mudslinging, etc. are unacceptable behaviors.

On the other hand, none of us (to the best of my knowledge) is
necessarily in possession of all of the truth on any subject.
Moreover, it's entirely possible - and reasonable - for two
people in posession of the same facts to /interpret/ those facts
differently as a consequence of their differing experiences.

> In fact, I haven't been able to help but develop a list of
> wreckers who I wouldn't share a broken tool with, much less
> pleasant discourse; all because they couldn't contain their
> opinions on subjects that shouldn't be aired in a common
> interest forum for which those subjects would be off-topic.

Ok. My criteria for tool-sharing is a bit different; but I don't
have any difficulty accepting yours.

> Unfortunately, the anonymity behind which all who choose to
> can hide on the internet removes the constraints with which
> society holds a person with regard to his behavior.

The anonymity doesn't remove the community's norms; it simply
allows those who disregard them to be somewhat faceless. As with
most usenet groups, posters who conceal their identity are
afforded much less credibility/respect than others.

> Moreover, typing vitriol is virtually risk free as opposed to
> spewing it in person at the risk of a bloody nose. It's no
> surprise to me that we see so much of it on the internet. I'm
> not saying there's no place for it on the 'net; I know of at
> least a couple of "flame" newsgroups and several political
> ones where that is the appropriate medium.

It'll probably continue as long as there are sufficiently angry,
twisted, or broken people. Not much you or I or the wreck can
do about it, except quietly not participate when we recognize
that this is the case.

> I just think that the wreck is not one of them, and I don't
> want to find out about my friends' feet of clay. And that
> works across the spectrum; I'm sure there must be someone out
> there who is embarrassed about the way they've learned I feel.

Do you think they should be? A diversity of viewpoints, to me at
least, is wonderful and to be treasured. I can value you as a
person and source of woodworking expertise regardless of your
politics, religion, favorite editor, or choice of computer/OS.

The bad news: We all have feet of clay.
The good news: We do the best we can in spite of it.

> Anyway, I expressed regret about joining the mob and its
> mentality and I meant it. And here is my pledge. No more will
> I engage in political (or other divisive) threads. It is not
> good for me, it is not good for my friends, it is not good for
> the wreck. The opinions expressed aren't going to change
> anyone's mind; it's naive for anyone to think so. That
> probably includes this one.

It's your choice, of course. My own take is that it's almost
impossible to arrive at consensus without a certain amount of
wrangling - and the more people care and the more varied their
experiences, the more heat the discussion generates. I don't much
worry about the heat as long as there's at least some light.
Politics isn't inherently toxic - but neither is it inherently
sanitary.

Case in point: I'm finding that good wood is becoming more and
more difficult to find. Why is that? Is there anything that can
be done to remedy the situation? If there is, what action can I
(and/or other woodworkers) take?

I've already asked myself these questions; and (with considerable
regret) come to the conclusion that any long-term solution /will/
involve politics and politicians. If your conclusion is
different, then I'm interested in learning about it. Actually,
I'm interested in /any/ solution.

I apologize to you if any of my posts have given offense. I can
assure you that it was not intentional. I can assure you also
that I don't use a pseudonym and that you can DAGS (web and
groups) on my name (use quotes) to retrieve enough material to
thoroughly bore yourself.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

Hello All Fellow Woodworkers,
Here, here! I second the motion! I'm fairly new to the
rec.woodworking group and do appreciate the good, the bad and the
indifferent here on the myriad nuances of woodworking et al. If I
wanted to discuss politics, fishing, tantric sex or other social
issues I'd be digging around in another group for that particular
pertinent information. I have always found most of the internet
groups, whatever their topic, to be anything but. Ads, trolls, red
herrings, scams & blathering idiots rampant. Sifting through the
detritus is a waste of mine and most people's time. I respect the
integrity I have seen in this woodworking group for staying, for the
most part, relevant, and true to the purpose of a group forum. I feel
a sense of pride, in that, most of the contributors here feel the same
way. Now, I know I am going off topic myself, in response to this
thread, but I do applaud the thought behind it. Thank you!
Michael

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message
> Swingman wrote:
> > "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
> >
> >>allows those who disregard them to be somewhat faceless. As with
> >>most usenet groups, posters who conceal their identity are
> >>afforded much less credibility/respect than others.
> >
> >
> > And what guarantee do we have that "Morris Dovey" is not anonymity in
> > disguise? :)
>
> Absolutely none - but I'd be really absolutely thunderstruck to
> discover that I was actually someone else in disguise. [-8

LOL ... hell, even my spell checker thinks your last name is suspicious. ;>)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>No more will I engage in political (or other divisive) threads.

Then just do it for God's sake. Making announcements to gather sympathy
just increases the noise around here.

I hate whining from regulars for the following reason. Political battles
and other OT content in threads is so easy to spot and ignore if one is so
inclined. However, the all too frequent whining posts are slipped in
everywhere often without a way to tell it is just another complaint about
something that won't change. It's even worse coming from a regular because
I am more inclined to download a post from a regular. Much more of my time
is wasted by regulars who are complaining about something than by the OT
crap.

And yes, in the spirit of sheer hypocrisy, I am whining.
Frank

"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

> allows those who disregard them to be somewhat faceless. As with
> most usenet groups, posters who conceal their identity are
> afforded much less credibility/respect than others.

And what guarantee do we have that "Morris Dovey" is not anonymity in
disguise? :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Oh damn! I have a problem with political threads. Whenever somebody
makes some statement that registers in mega-morons on the stupid scale,
I feel I must jump in and set things straight. But then I realize that
trying to change the mindset of an idealogue who worships at the
porcelain throne of some politician is a waste of time. Once in a while
I will add some point of fact that is obviously missing, but I try to do
so without adding to the flow of bile. I shouldn't even do that I
suppose, but it does feel good until some doofus disputes the facts. My
blood pressure rises and then I realize that trying to change ... yada yada.

It is however, a free unrefereed forum and I would not suggest changing
it. Peace.
mahalo,
jo4hn

basically I agree, I also will take the pledge ..

By the way did you say you were running for mayor of .....oh well . :]
mjh

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Before anyone jumps me for my hypocrisy for posting in two threads
> currently running on the wreck, let me say that I regret my
> participation in those threads, but solely because I don't believe
> these threads belong here, whether they are labeled "Off Topic" or
> not. Justifying a post simply by labeling it "Off Topic" is akin to
> qualifying a racial or other odious slur by following it up with "just
> kidding." It's still odious and it's wrong.
>
> Here's why I hate the political threads. I have spent a number of
> years on the wreck. I participate both here and on other woodworking
> fora on the internet on a regular basis. I have personally met dozens
> of fellow woodworkers from all over the country; a feat unthinkable
> before the 'net. Virtually all of the people that I've met have been
> people that I would be comfortable with in my house. I would enjoy
> conversing with them about woodworking and other topics of mutual
> interest.
>
> When two (or more) people sit face to face it is almost unheard of for
> one of them to lean forward and say something anathema to the other's
> point of view; political, religious, or otherwise. I can't imagine
> someone doing that. It would be rude. It would be the height of
> inappropriate behavior. It would violate all rules of society.
>
> Of all of the people I've met as described, I can honestly say I don't
> know the political inclinations of any of them. I didn't ask; they
> didn't tell. I don't want to know. And apparently they felt the same,
> because at the end of the day, they had not asked, either. That's not
> to say I don't have some inklings or suspicions, but I've not wanted
> to follow up to confirm.
>
> The reason for that is I've seen too much lying, muckraking,
> prevarication, misinformation, mudslinging, unbelievable distortion of
> facts, all to political ends, for me to respect anyone that I believe
> is embracing those techniques and using them to further their
> particular ends. And I don't want to not respect the people I've
> become friends with. It hurts me to see someone whom I appreciate for
> their knowledge and experience in a particular area of woodworking
> (the reason I'm here) line up on the other side of what I believe.
>
> In fact, I haven't been able to help but develop a list of wreckers
> who I wouldn't share a broken tool with, much less pleasant discourse;
> all because they couldn't contain their opinions on subjects that
> shouldn't be aired in a common interest forum for which those subjects
> would be off-topic.
>
> Unfortunately, the anonymity behind which all who choose to can hide
> on the internet removes the constraints with which society holds a
> person with regard to his behavior.
>
> Moreover, typing vitriol is virtually risk free as opposed to spewing
> it in person at the risk of a bloody nose. It's no surprise to me that
> we see so much of it on the internet. I'm not saying there's no place
> for it on the 'net; I know of at least a couple of "flame" newsgroups
> and several political ones where that is the appropriate medium.
>
> I just think that the wreck is not one of them, and I don't want to
> find out about my friends' feet of clay. And that works across the
> spectrum; I'm sure there must be someone out there who is embarrassed
> about the way they've learned I feel.
>
> Anyway, I expressed regret about joining the mob and its mentality and
> I meant it. And here is my pledge. No more will I engage in political
> (or other divisive) threads. It is not good for me, it is not good for
> my friends, it is not good for the wreck. The opinions expressed
> aren't going to change anyone's mind; it's naive for anyone to think
> so. That probably includes this one.
>
>
> - -
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net

Swingman wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
>
>
>>allows those who disregard them to be somewhat faceless. As with
>>most usenet groups, posters who conceal their identity are
>>afforded much less credibility/respect than others.
>
>
> And what guarantee do we have that "Morris Dovey" is not anonymity in
> disguise? :)

Absolutely none - but I'd be really absolutely thunderstruck to
discover that I was actually someone else in disguise. [-8

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA