Ed Bennett wrote:
> Tell us, please, what "tool" is "much more versatile" than a
> "miraculous" (thanks!) TS-Aligner and costs "between 1/4 and 1/10 as
> much"?
That's easy.
A mag base with surface gauge pins.
>
> Bulb check: "much more versatile" would mean that it does *everything*
> that a TS-Aligner can do, and then it does "much more".
No, not necessarily.
I understand your protecting your little corner of the woodworking market but
that's no excuse to be stupid.
> So, for
> example, all models of TS-Aligner can measure angles.
LMAO!
Laughing at this could take another post.
I read your page on it. How many times have I heard 'it looked good on paper'?
Too damned many.
> And then you will be
> listing out all the things that this tool can do that the same
> TS-Aligner model can't do, right?
So a TS aligner, in any of the models as delivered without accessories, can set
up a drill press? Check runout on a chuck? Check runout, endplay, or lateral
movement of an arbor? How about in a motor?
Can it be used any other place than woodworking? Sure doesn't look like it. That
is, unless you buy how much in accessories?
And how can you rotate the tool to make the plunger perpendicular to the blade
when the blade is tilted 45 degrees to set the second part of alignment? You
see, one of the tenants of measurement is to have the plunger 90 degrees to the
surface being measured.
WHile I admit you build a nice single purpose tool your tool is only able to do
half the job.
> Another bulb check: A couple of examples on cost might be
> illuminating. Your solution has to do "much more" than a Jr. Lite and
> cost less than $17.50, or "much more" than a Sr. and cost less than
> $33.00 complete - nothing else to buy. Right?
Pretty much.
You are using Harbor Freight indicators.
Unless a customer wants to pay more, that is.
> It wouldn't be very
> bright to propose a $10 dial indicator and then list out $50 worth of
> points, bases, bars, stands, jigs, and other accessories.
If I'm not mistaken your using a $10 indicator and charging ?? for the jig to
hold it? $39? $49? $249?? $300+???
What a way to piss away money.
> Ed Bennett
> [email protected]
> Ya, you know who, inventor of you know what!
No Kidding!!
I saw you hawking your stuff recently.
I guess this means I can come here and advertise my eBay auctions.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice
there is.
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)
Hi Mark,
I certainly hope your "bulb" is burning bright enough to illuminate us
all on what you have said here. And, it might just be of interest to
those who actually want to read things about woodworking.
Tell us, please, what "tool" is "much more versatile" than a
"miraculous" (thanks!) TS-Aligner and costs "between 1/4 and 1/10 as
much"?
Bulb check: "much more versatile" would mean that it does *everything*
that a TS-Aligner can do, and then it does "much more". So, for
example, all models of TS-Aligner can measure angles. So, you will be
explaining how this tool of yours can precisely measure angles, right?
Function for function you will be explaining how your tool matches
that of the TS-Aligner Model of your choice. And then you will be
listing out all the things that this tool can do that the same
TS-Aligner model can't do, right?
I'm all ears! Unviel the tool that can crush the "miraculous"
TS-Aligner for between 1/4 and 1/10 the price!
Another bulb check: A couple of examples on cost might be
illuminating. Your solution has to do "much more" than a Jr. Lite and
cost less than $17.50, or "much more" than a Sr. and cost less than
$33.00 complete - nothing else to buy. Right? It wouldn't be very
bright to propose a $10 dial indicator and then list out $50 worth of
points, bases, bars, stands, jigs, and other accessories.
I love a good challenge (a "subjective" interest of mine)!
Yours truely,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]
Ya, you know who, inventor of you know what!
Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
<snip>
>
> Your bulb burning a bit dim? If it were near or at full brightness you would
> realize what is of interest is fully subjective.
>
> I have no interest in seeing another post on the miraculous TS Aligner by people
> who can't figure out how to do the same job with a much more versatile tool that
> costs between 1/4 and 1/10 as much (depending on model).
>
> OTOH, I've started referring to Dubya as Shrub ....
>
> It's all subjective.
>
>
>
> > and you can't find the F'n things among all the
> > crap in what used to be a decent newsgroup where the topic of the day
> > was "woodworking".
>
>
>
> Oh Hell, it's still a decent newsgroup. Once you learn how to read it.
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
> In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice
> there is.
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
> Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
> (Gaz, r.moto)
Holy Cow! For a while I was begining to think that the "lights were
on" but nobody was home!
Thanks for the reply Mark. I'll reply "in-line", as you did.
Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Ed Bennett wrote:
>
> > Tell us, please, what "tool" is "much more versatile" than a
> > "miraculous" (thanks!) TS-Aligner and costs "between 1/4 and 1/10 as
> > much"?
>
>
> That's easy.
>
> A mag base with surface gauge pins.
Well, the word which best describes my reaction is "flabbergasted"!
Gee, I thought you would at least include a dial indicator. I
probably just don't understand what you're talking about. Perhaps you
are being creative in your use of terminology (al-la Strickland).
Tell me exactly what you mean by "surface gauge pins". I know what a
surface gauge is and I know that it has pins which fit into holes in
the base. They can be used for follwoing the edge of a workpiece. I
can think of all sorts of ways that you could take the pins out of a
surface gauge and use them with a magnetic base (I presume that this
is the sort of magnetic base most commonly used with dial indicators).
But, I just can't fathom how this setup is "much more versatile" than
even the Jr. Lite.
Maybe you could explain exactly what you are talking about so that it
can be understood by everyone who is interested. For example, how is
this setup going to measure angles? How are the pins used (there are
no holes for them in the common magnetic base)? What exactly is being
used for measurements? Let's say you wanted to change a cutter height
or move a fence by 0.015", how would you use this setup to accomplish
the task with precision and assurance? Can you use this setup to
measure blade, arbor, or spindle runout and report a numeric value?
> > Bulb check: "much more versatile" would mean that it does *everything*
> > that a TS-Aligner can do, and then it does "much more".
>
>
> No, not necessarily.
>
> I understand your protecting your little corner of the woodworking market but
> that's no excuse to be stupid.
I think you misunderstand on a couple of points and I don't have any
problem explaining it to you in detail.
First, with regard to "protecting" my "little corner". Actually,
that's not what this is all about. There's much more at stake than a
little bit of marketshare. I have thousands of customers all over the
world who would suddenly feel pretty darn stupid for wasting their
money on my products if what you have said is true. And, if your
statements were true, then my credibility and integrity would be
worthless. I don't think my customers are stupid and I strive to run
my business with the highest standards of expertise and honesty. So,
the most logical thing for me to do is pursue the truth. If I just
let your claims go unchallenged, then I leave my customers wondering
about me and my products. After all, if I don't believe in what I say
enough to challenge an ignorant heckler, then why should anyone else?
Second, with regard to the phrase "much more versatile", I think you
owe yourself some additional thought before tossing about such high
minded terms as "stupid". If your "mag base with surface gauge pins"
idea doesn't do everything that my TS-Aligner idea does, then the best
you can say is that the two ideas have "different" capabilities. One
is not "more versatile" than another if there are capabilities in each
that the other cannot perform. An automobile is not "much more
versatile" than a television. An orange is not "much more versatile"
than a shoe. A milling machine is "much more versatile" than a drill
press. A Swiss Army pocket knife is "much more versatile" than a
common butter knife. Do you get it?
The question at hand involves a "mag base with surface gauge pins" and
a TS-Aligner (you have yet to specify a model). Is either "much more
versatile" than the other? I don't think so but it's not my question
to answer. I don't have anything to prove. You're the one making the
claim and I have challenged you to prove it. Your choice: PUT UP or
SHUT UP! Is this getting any more clear for you or do we need to put
the cookie jar on a lower shelf?
> > So, for
> > example, all models of TS-Aligner can measure angles.
>
>
> LMAO!
>
> Laughing at this could take another post.
>
> I read your page on it. How many times have I heard 'it looked good on paper'?
> Too damned many.
Gee Mark, I think you meant to type more in your answer but somehow it
didn't seem to come out in your message. If you didn't notice,
there's nothing in what you said which describes how your idea
measures angles. In fact, you even deleted my words requiring such an
explanation. It's clear that you don't think much of how my products
measure angles but that doesn't change the fact that they do. And, it
doesn't seem to occur to you that the methods are well accepted and
proven (casting serious doubt on your credibility). But, this doesn't
get you off the hook for explaining how your idea measures angles.
Please give it another try and this time make an honest attempt to
describe how you manage to get a "mag base with surface gauge pins" to
measure angles.
> So a TS aligner, in any of the models as delivered without accessories, can set
> up a drill press
The Jr., Jr. Deluxe, Jr. Premium, and Sr.: Yes The Jr. Lite: no. I'm
left wondering how your "mag base with surface gauge pins"
accomplishes this without a measurement device. Or, perhaps you just
forgot to mention that minor detail.
> Check runout on a chuck?
Yes, all models. Care to explain how a "mag base with surface gauge
pins" can do this?
> Check runout, endplay, or lateral
> movement of an arbor? How about in a motor?
Yes, all models. Again, unless you bolt a dial indicator onto that
magnetic base, you're "mag base with surface gauge pins" isn't going
to be very capable in these specific tasks. Probably not much better
than a sharp stick and a "C" clamp.
>
> Can it be used any other place than woodworking? Sure doesn't look like it.
Well, perhaps you should just take another look. Or, maybe if I
explain things in more simple terms you will be able to understand
better. All models of TS-Aligner are just customized bases for dial
indicators. They have special features which make them ideally suited
for use on woodworking machines. A magnetic base is a very general
purpose mounting for a dial indicator. It is not impossible to use a
TS-Aligner as the dial indicator base for making measurements on
metalworking machinery. Just as it is not impossible to use a
magnetic base to make measurements with a dial indicator on
woodworking machinery.
> That
> is, unless you buy how much in accessories?
None of the accessories I sell are specifically designed to facilitate
the use of any TS-Aligner model in non-woodworking applications. I
really don't know where you get this idea from.
> And how can you rotate the tool to make the plunger perpendicular to the blade
> when the blade is tilted 45 degrees to set the second part of alignment?
It's demonstrated in the video. Why don't you get a copy? Surely
someone who has a computer and can spend so much time on Usenet has
$0.01 (plus $1.95 s/h) to get a copy of the video!
> You
> see, one of the tenants of measurement is to have the plunger 90 degrees to the
> surface being measured.
Perhaps you are refering to the basic principles of Metrology when you
say "tennants of measurement". I'm quite familiar and comfortable
with Metrology. I freely admit that my Angle Attachment Gage
stretches the rules a bit! Keep in mind, it takes some pretty good
knowledge of the rules to get away with stretching them as far as I
have. The AAG works pretty darn good all by itself and it is a
stellar example of Metrological principles when used with angle
blocks. I'm inclined to believe that Metrology isn't exactly one of
your better subjects.
> WHile I admit you build a nice single purpose tool your tool is only able to do
> half the job.
"Single purpose"? "Half the job"? I suggest that you actually spend
some time learning about my products before you publicly embarrass
yourself further.
> > Another bulb check: A couple of examples on cost might be
> > illuminating. Your solution has to do "much more" than a Jr. Lite and
> > cost less than $17.50, or "much more" than a Sr. and cost less than
> > $33.00 complete - nothing else to buy. Right?
>
>
> Pretty much.
Details please. So, if you want to compare the capabilities of your
"mag base with surface gauge pins" to a Jr. Lite, then you need to
demonstrate that it costs $17.50 or less. That's 1/4 the cost of a
Jr. Lite. If your idea proves out, then people will want to know
where they can buy it at the prices you quote. So, it would be good
service to the group and an expectation of mine that you include your
sources.
>
> You are using Harbor Freight indicators.
Your light bulb is seriously flickering. Not even the China option is
from "Harbor Freight". It's from a company called MHC. No, that's not
a typo. Check out the web site:
http://www.mhctools.com/
I've tested dozens of low cost dial indicators from China. You can
get stuck with some real dogs if you're not careful. I'm sure lots of
importers (like Harbor Freight) buy some of the same indicators I've
tested. I like the MHC.
>
> Unless a customer wants to pay more, that is.
>
Of course. Are you thinking that I should be giving Starrett
indicators away for free? Or, perhaps you believe that everyone needs
a Starrett and that I shouldn't offer customers a choice of price
range. "Make them pay more even if they don't want to!" Right? I'm
not sure if you have a point here. It seems critical but has no
substance. Care to explain?
>
> > It wouldn't be very
> > bright to propose a $10 dial indicator and then list out $50 worth of
> > points, bases, bars, stands, jigs, and other accessories.
>
>
> If I'm not mistaken your using a $10 indicator and charging ?? for the jig to
> hold it? $39? $49? $249?? $300+???
>
> What a way to piss away money.
>
Again Mark, it seems to me like you needed to type so much more but it
just didn't happen. The point of this exercise was to have you
explain your solution, not criticize my solution. Perhaps my
expectations of you were much too high.
In any case...visitors to my web site can find out how much my
products sell for, what they are made of, and what they come with.
Anybody with experience in manufacturing machined products knows the
value of what I offer. You are more than welcome to try an replicate
that value in your own shop or hire a machinist to make one for you in
his shop. I will provide the drawings to any bona fide machinist you
contract. I guarantee that such an experience will help you to
appreciate the value of my products and come to a very profound
understanding of the phrase "piss away money".
My prices and products may have been the point of your critical
heckle, but they are not the point of my challenge. Please explain to
everyone how much your "mag base with surface gauge pins" costs. And,
I suspect that there are a few components missing in your description.
Specifically, you might want to mention if you are assuming that your
"mag base" includes a measurement device (like a dial indicator).
And, if you have particular merchants in mind (like "Harbor Freight",
for example), please mention them too.
> > Ed Bennett
> > [email protected]
> > Ya, you know who, inventor of you know what!
>
>
> No Kidding!!
I kid you not.
>
> I saw you hawking your stuff recently.
>
> I guess this means I can come here and advertise my eBay auctions.
You can do anything you like. What happens after that is called
"consequences". If you think that you know how it will be received,
and you judge yourself able to live with the consequences, then feel
free to do whatever you like.
> In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice
> there is.
Except in Science, of course.
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
> Mark Twain)
Been there, done that, wondering about this particular situation right
now.
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
> (Gaz, r.moto)
Or not. Suspense often has it's roots in such impulsive behavior.
So, Mark, are we going to see some answers this time? Please make a
better effort. I think that there are people in the group who have an
interest in learning about better ways of adjusting and aligning their
machinery. If you really have better ways, then by all means share
them. If you don't and are just using this heckle to gain attention
then it's in your best interest to move on. I have a habbit of doing
an exhaustive and exacting job at any task I set my mind to.
Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]
[email protected] (Ed Bennett) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
<snip>
> Maybe you could explain exactly what you are talking about...
<snip>
Or maybe not.
I guess Mark is one of those "people who can't figure out how to do
the same job with a much more versatile tool that costs between 1/4
and 1/10 as much [as a TS-Aligner](depending on model)." Well Mark,
you're in good company.
Thanks,
Ed Bennett
[email protected]
You must mean 200 out of 230 threads. The ratio of the number of OT
posts to the number of posts is much closer to 1, since many political
OT post have hundreds of posts.
In fact, it is more accurate to call post about woodworking OT.
[email protected] (George G) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Approximately 200 posts out of 230 posts were OT.
> mmmmmm----------George
I suppose my data is skewed by the before-the-election posts where I
believe almost no posts were about woodworking. Looks like the group
is getting back to woodworking...and I'm happy about that.
Joe Willmann <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I am not sure what you are talking about. I see about 90% on topic posts
> on this group. Most of the off topic are well marked either planely in the
> title or by subject.
"Guess who" wrote in message
> who would give a lot of really good information and advice. That's
> what this newsgroup is supposed to be about ...but it's not any more,
> except for a small scattering.
Like most human endeavors, you might have to dig, skin, peel, crack,
harvest, uncover, chop, dice and/or filter to get something worthwhile and,
IMO, Usenet is no different ... at least since the advent of Windows.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
"George G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Approximately 200 posts out of 230 posts were OT.
> mmmmmm----------George
>
WTF are you talking about? New threads? Total posts? For a week, day,
hour? Why don't you then read the 30 posts that interest you instead of
bitching?
Frank
Guess who wrote:
>
> Because you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer if you can't see
> [or plain just don't care] that there are not as many as 30 of
> interest any more, ........
Your bulb burning a bit dim? If it were near or at full brightness you would
realize what is of interest is fully subjective.
I have no interest in seeing another post on the miraculous TS Aligner by people
who can't figure out how to do the same job with a much more versatile tool that
costs between 1/4 and 1/10 as much (depending on model).
OTOH, I've started referring to Dubya as Shrub ....
It's all subjective.
> and you can't find the F'n things among all the
> crap in what used to be a decent newsgroup where the topic of the day
> was "woodworking".
Oh Hell, it's still a decent newsgroup. Once you learn how to read it.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice
there is.
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens, A.K.A.
Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the suspense.
(Gaz, r.moto)
And you just made 231. Proud of yourself?
"George G" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Approximately 200 posts out of 230 posts were OT.
> mmmmmm----------George
>
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 23:03:31 GMT, "Frank Ketchum"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> Approximately 200 posts out of 230 posts were OT.
>> mmmmmm----------George
>>
>
>WTF are you talking about? New threads? Total posts? For a week, day,
>hour? Why don't you then read the 30 posts that interest you instead of
>bitching?
Because you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer if you can't see
[or plain just don't care] that there are not as many as 30 of
interest any more, and you can't find the F'n things among all the
crap in what used to be a decent newsgroup where the topic of the day
was "woodworking".
It's like pissing in the pool; not good, no matter the amount, but
when the pool's almost pure piss, who wants in any more? The real
problem is that the idiots who post it don't have the brains to start
their own newsgroup, so they act like parasites in other groups. The
only thing they have in common with wood is that they are like
termites, and crowd out people who would otherwise be interested and
who would give a lot of really good information and advice. That's
what this newsgroup is supposed to be about ...but it's not any more,
except for a small scattering.
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (George G) wrote:
> Approximately 200 posts out of 230 posts were OT.
> mmmmmm----------George
As a service to the rest of us reading the wreck, may I beg you to
please put OT: in the front of your subject like for OT posts such as
this. This allows filtering or at least ordering our reading experience
and makes the wreck a better place for all. Thanks you in advance.
PK