Birch Plywood For Painted Book Case - $50 vs. $75

On 11/9/2017 6:11 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 5:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:49:55 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>>>>
>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>>>
>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood,
>>>> something I've
>>>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet.
>>>> Home
>>>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>>>
>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the
>>>> extra
>>>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>>
>>> Several things, possibly, singly or in combination...
>>>
>>> 1. better face veneers.  A2 vs D4, eg
>>> 2. made in US vs elsewhere
>>> 3. better interior veneers, fewer voids, etc.
>>>
>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the
>>>> shelves
>>>> and top of base?
>>>
>>> Strength wise, yes.  But why bother if you are buying 3/4 anyway?
>>> Masochistic?  :)
>>
>> (This may sound like I'm arguing, but I'm not. I'm just trying to
>> understand your
>>
>> The concept of using 2 thicknesses of wood was something that crossed
>> my mind, but if the
>> cut list works out that there is no real overlap between the wood for
>> the carcass and the wood
>> for the shelves, they why not save weight and money?
>>
>> When I build a bed, I use different thicknesses for the rails than I
>> do for the head and
>> foot boards. Why wouldn't that same concept apply to the thickness of
>> the plywood
>> used for different parts of a book case or hutch?
>>
>> e.g. 4 sheets of 5/8" for the carcasses, 2 sheets of 3/4" for the
>> shelves, assuming of
>> course that I'm not going to end up with a lot of waste of either. I
>> don't yet know if that
>> will be the case, but if it works out, why would that be masochistic?
>>
>> Heck, I'm going to use 1/4" plywood for the backs, not 3/4”. Why is
>> that any different than
>> using 5/8" for the carcass and 3/4” for shelves?
>>
>
> Because all the 1/4" ply is doing is keeping it square, preventing it
> from racking.  It's not providing (or doesn't need to) any strength to
> the cabinet.
>
> Most cabinet builders have 3/4" ply on the brain.  It's easy to
> calculate and dimensional hardwoods are already sized for it.  It
> "matches" hardwood boards so it makes hybrid construction fairly seamless.
> There's a reason it's the standard and it's not because "Big Plywood"
> wants to make more money off of you.
>
> You're not really saving that much money on 5/8" are you?
> Either way, go ahead and do it and learn from the process.
> Come back here and report your findings.  You may teach us something.
>
>

A great reason to use 3/4" over 5/8" or smaller is for adjustable shelf
pins.
If the cabinet in the link is built as single top and bottom units and
less than 3/4" ply is used for the center divider panel normal shelf
pins will not go in all the way with out pushing the pin on the
opposites side out of its hole. Of course you can offset the holes but
then the shelves on the left and right sides can never be at the same
height.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 12:47:08 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 3:18:22 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/10/17 1:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> > On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> >> On 11/9/17 5:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> >>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGaw
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>> >>>>> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> >>>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like
>> >>>>>> these:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood,
>> >>>>>> something I've never used before. A local lumber yard
>> >>>>>> quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home Depot has (what they
>> >>>>>> call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What
>> >>>>>> does the extra $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4"
>> >>>>>> for the shelves and top of base?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Thanks!
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the
>> >>>>> price difference. And or if it is stain quality or simply
>> >>>>> paint quality.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but
>> >>>>> IMHO not enough savings to offset the extra effort of dealing
>> >>>>> with different thicknesses of wood and plywood.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and
>> >>>> check out MDO plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer
>> >>>> and paints beautifully. 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill
>> >>>> since the forces are cross-surface but it certainly can't hurt.
>> >>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you
>> >>>> are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some
>> >>>> form of stiffening (or center support).
>> >>>
>> >>> It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to
>> >>> hide the core, add some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening.
>> >>> Form and function. There will be a face frame too. ;-)
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
>> >> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load. In my
>> >> opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
>> >>
>> >> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Nice. How deep are your shelves? The actual shelves, not including
>> > the face frame. Are you happy with what you choose as a depth?
>> >
>> > I know that it all depends on what the shelves will be used for, and
>> > I have dimension in mind for my project, but I'm just curious as to
>> > what depth you chose, why you chose it and how it's worked out after
>> > all these years.
>> >
>>
>> There are actually in a friend/client's home, not mine.
>> But IIRC, they were nominal depths of 12" and 16".
>> 8-12" is considered "book" depth and 16" is a "cabinet" depth for
>> scrapbooks and things like that. That's the theoretical application for
>> those sizes. However, there are practical reasons beyond what size
>> things will be on them.
>>
>> Consider a sheet of plywood at 48" x 96". Those are both perfect
>> multiples of 12 and 16.
>> This means you can get the most out of an entire sheet of plywood with
>> no waste. What about the saw kerf, you ask? That's why I call it
>> "nominal" sizing.
>>
>> Using these rough sizes allows you to quickly tear down your sheet good
>> to rough sizes (even using a circular saw and straightedge). Then you
>> can add your hardwood edge banding, then rip to finished size. You
>> probably can see in the pic, but I'm pretty sure I put edge bands on
>> both sides of the shelves. I stood on some and had no deflection. The
>> center shelves are fixed to add stability/strength to the cases.
>>
>> The clients recently moved out of the home and were disappointed to
>> leave them there.
>> They told me they still looked and performed like new.
>> BTW, I made every piece of trim and door "from scratch."
>>
>
>Thanks. My plan is for 12" shelves which should work for all of SWMBO's
>cookbooks and cooking magazines. 16" should work for the base cabinets.
>
>The main issue is that SWMBO and I don't visualize things the same way.
>She can't picture those dimensions in her head even when I stand there
>with a tape measure and show her what 12" and 16" is. You would not want
>her as a client. ;-) On the other hand, if you are longing for a great
>meal, she's the one to call.
>

I think I married her sister, well almost. My wife's not too much into
cooking.

>I've decided that I am going to get some poster board from the dollar store
>and build a full scale mock-up of one unit so she can alter the dimensions
>before I put blade to wood. It'll protect me and keep me sane.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 10:59:51 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 11/10/17 1:55 AM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 1:04:36 PM UTC-8,
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> ... white plastic coated bookshelves. Particle board or MDF, not
>>> sure. Shelves are 3/4". 30" width. The ones with heavy books in
>>> the middle do have noticeable bow. 1/4" bow probably. Noticeable.
>>> Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle board or
>>> MDF shelves.
>>
>> Sag strength of plywood is half that of solid wood (half the grain is
>> running the wrong way!), and MDF usually doesn't hold a load for long
>> times (even if it's stiff enough, it's not STABLE).
>>
>> Inexpensive whitewood, or knotty SPF, makes good shelves, and you can
>> always glue on a decorative edge. At 30", it'll hold anything
>> booklike without sagging. Just try to get a non-cupped plank for the
>> job.
>>
>
>That is my experience as well.
>Our Lowes & HD both carry this pre-primed, laminated and finger-jointed
>stuff from Brazil that is super cheap and super stable. It comes in a
>bunch of different widths. It's perfect for painted shelves.
>
>Inexpensive, no cups, straight as an arrow, strong & stable, ready for
>finish coat.
>Can't go wrong, especially considering the time it saves.

I've seen some of those finger joints loose where they were stacked.
Already coming apart. I don't think I'd use those of books even if
surrounded by dado's with a nice hardwood edge in the front.

Just my 1/2 cent worth.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>
> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be=20
> sufficient if you are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan =
on=20
> some form of stiffening (or center support).

Agree. I have some white plastic coated bookshelves. Particle board or MD=
F, not sure. Shelves are 3/4". 30" width. The ones with heavy books in t=
he middle do have noticeable bow. 1/4" bow probably. Noticeable. Plywood=
would likely be stronger than my cheap particle board or MDF shelves. But=
strong enough to avoid bowing?

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 10:55:11 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 8:41 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> > Iggy <[email protected]> writes:
> >> replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
> >> You'll have to visually inspect them both. Rumor has it that the Lumber Yard
> >> still gets the furniture-grade plywood with a decent veneer thickness, I
> >> haven't found this to be true at 2 of the Lumber Yards around me. HD's
> >> however, is too thin to ever be refinish sanded.
> >>>
> >> Otherwise, 5/8's is definitely plenty and even too much for the carcass. 3/4
> >> is at best only okay for the shelves, real wood planking would be a vast
> >> improvement. But, if you choose the 3/4, then you should angle iron or
> >> c-channel the front and back edges to avoid the inevitable future sag.
> >
> > There is so much wrong here, it is difficult to know where to start.
> >
>
> Exactly. I was about to reply but then I was like, "no, what good would
> it do?"
>

Well, it might help the OP who is trying to learn about birch plywood.

Besides, it'll definitely be fun to watch. ;-)

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 4:07:09 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/10/17 2:47 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 3:18:22 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 11/10/17 1:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>> On 11/9/17 5:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGawv
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like
> >>>>>>>> these:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood,
> >>>>>>>> something I've never used before. A local lumber yard
> >>>>>>>> quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home Depot has (what they
> >>>>>>>> call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What
> >>>>>>>> does the extra $25 get me at the lumber yard?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4"
> >>>>>>>> for the shelves and top of base?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the
> >>>>>>> price difference. And or if it is stain quality or simply
> >>>>>>> paint quality.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but
> >>>>>>> IMHO not enough savings to offset the extra effort of dealing
> >>>>>>> with different thicknesses of wood and plywood.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and
> >>>>>> check out MDO plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer
> >>>>>> and paints beautifully. 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill
> >>>>>> since the forces are cross-surface but it certainly can't hurt.
> >>>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you
> >>>>>> are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some
> >>>>>> form of stiffening (or center support).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to
> >>>>> hide the core, add some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening.
> >>>>> Form and function. There will be a face frame too. ;-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
> >>>> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load. In my
> >>>> opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Nice. How deep are your shelves? The actual shelves, not including
> >>> the face frame. Are you happy with what you choose as a depth?
> >>>
> >>> I know that it all depends on what the shelves will be used for, and
> >>> I have dimension in mind for my project, but I'm just curious as to
> >>> what depth you chose, why you chose it and how it's worked out after
> >>> all these years.
> >>>
> >>
> >> There are actually in a friend/client's home, not mine.
> >> But IIRC, they were nominal depths of 12" and 16".
> >> 8-12" is considered "book" depth and 16" is a "cabinet" depth for
> >> scrapbooks and things like that. That's the theoretical application for
> >> those sizes. However, there are practical reasons beyond what size
> >> things will be on them.
> >>
> >> Consider a sheet of plywood at 48" x 96". Those are both perfect
> >> multiples of 12 and 16.
> >> This means you can get the most out of an entire sheet of plywood with
> >> no waste. What about the saw kerf, you ask? That's why I call it
> >> "nominal" sizing.
> >>
> >> Using these rough sizes allows you to quickly tear down your sheet good
> >> to rough sizes (even using a circular saw and straightedge). Then you
> >> can add your hardwood edge banding, then rip to finished size. You
> >> probably can see in the pic, but I'm pretty sure I put edge bands on
> >> both sides of the shelves. I stood on some and had no deflection. The
> >> center shelves are fixed to add stability/strength to the cases.
> >>
> >> The clients recently moved out of the home and were disappointed to
> >> leave them there.
> >> They told me they still looked and performed like new.
> >> BTW, I made every piece of trim and door "from scratch."
> >>
> >
> > Thanks. My plan is for 12" shelves which should work for all of SWMBO's
> > cookbooks and cooking magazines. 16" should work for the base cabinets.
> >
> > The main issue is that SWMBO and I don't visualize things the same way.
> > She can't picture those dimensions in her head even when I stand there
> > with a tape measure and show her what 12" and 16" is. You would not want
> > her as a client. ;-) On the other hand, if you are longing for a great
> > meal, she's the one to call.
> >
> > I've decided that I am going to get some poster board from the dollar store
> > and build a full scale mock-up of one unit so she can alter the dimensions
> > before I put blade to wood. It'll protect me and keep me sane.
> >
>
> If you have a craft store nearby check out what they call gatorboard or
> gatorfoam.
> It's not cheap, but perfect for mockups.

I went cheap and bought a 4 pack of those tri-fold displays like you see at a high-school
science fair.

http://teachingdisplays.co.uk/images/thumbs/0000966_300.jpeg

2 for the base cabinet, 2 for the bookcase unit along with some other clean cardboard
pieces that I had. Cardboard cuts real easy on a table saw. ;-)

The full size mockup really helps. I think I need to scale it back a little. 2 units, each with four
12" deep shelves and a 16" base cabinet is a little large for the space. We're going to leave
the mockup in place for a few days and imagine a matching unit on the other side of the
window to see if we get used to it.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 5:45:16 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>=20
> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>=20
> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I'v=
e
> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Ho=
me
> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>=20
> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extr=
a=20
> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>=20
> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
> and top of base?
>=20
> Thanks!

I don't know how familiar you are with your Home Depot's product lines, but=
I can tell you from experience that it can vary wildly. If I am looking f=
or a certain plywood, I drive to the nearest store and look at their stock.

A couple of days ago I was ready to build a "one off" carcass to replace th=
e large sink cabinet damaged by a bad leak at a client's house. I went to t=
he closest HD looking for A/B, B/C, economy "cab ply", or even this unident=
ified paint grade stuff from Chile they have once in a while. I found some=
thing called "pine ply" or similar. It was A/B in appearance, but all hard=
pine. No footballs, good veneer thickness, 8 layers of material (!!!), an=
d really clean. Never seen it before. It was about $30 a sheet.

Got it back to operating table, and laid out my cut patterns and wound up u=
sing almost all of it, the point being lots of cuts, probably 30 lineal fee=
t or so. ONE void, just one about the size of a pencil eraser in one of th=
e layers. That's it. Held screws, brads, etc., with no problems and when =
using my countersink, it didn't splinter.

If I had a place to put this stuff I would go buy about 5 sheets and put it=
back for my own use. I know that next time I need it they may (probably n=
ot) have it. We primed it with a roller on one side (interior of the cabin=
et painted per client) and put on a coat of paint before cutting. Assembled=
, we put on one more coat on the floor of the cab after the plumbing was re=
installed and I have to say it looks great. It sanded great, no splinterin=
g, and holds paint just fine.

Don't fall into the hole of thinking you will get a better quality of plywo=
od from a distributor. Around here, the local wholesaler (DixiePly)sells a=
great deal of the same stuff in the big boxes. The stuff in limited suppl=
y like the cab ply from Chile (affectionately called "Chiliply" by me) is a=
n HD exclusive so directly to them in lots. Most quality plywoods come fro=
m the local guys where available.

Not too sure what to make of all the nonsense posted by the guy that hasn't=
seen the end results of his work years later. The carcass should be 3/4".=
Thickness of your shelves should be predicated on their load. When buildi=
ng for all books, I use 3/4" plyood with a fascia (usually around 1x2) to c=
ompliment the style of the cabinet, and put a piece on the back of the shel=
f to keep the overall dimensions. I have seen my work with that detail hol=
d a library of law books, and a specialty open back cabinet to display larg=
e porcelain objects go for years without sag.

That being said, I also have used a 5/8" plywood on shelves. I put a flute=
d edge band on the show side and it looks and works great. The shelves hol=
d kitchen towels, tablecloths, cloth napkins in a utility hutch that look a=
bit more finished in that small, skinny cabinet.

I would find out what was going to be in the cabinet, decide if the shelves=
are to be adjustable, and take a look from there.

As always, just my 0.02. But I would take a look and see if I could find th=
at plywood at HD...

Robert=20

On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>
> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>
> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home
> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>
> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>
> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
> and top of base?
>
> Thanks!
>


Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the price
difference. And or if it is stain quality or simply paint quality.

I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but IMHO not
enough savings to offset the extra effort of dealing with different
thicknesses of wood and plywood.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On 11/9/2017 1:34 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Why do you snip our posts to such an extent that there absolutely no
>> context left?
>>
>
>
> This question, which will never be answered to your satisfaction, is
> annoying to the rest of us. ;~(

All things considered, I think I'd rather have the context and the poster
restricted to the characters a-z and space.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 14:41:55 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Iggy <[email protected]> writes:
>>replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
>>You'll have to visually inspect them both. Rumor has it that the Lumber Yard
>>still gets the furniture-grade plywood with a decent veneer thickness, I
>>haven't found this to be true at 2 of the Lumber Yards around me. HD's
>>however, is too thin to ever be refinish sanded.
>>>
>>Otherwise, 5/8's is definitely plenty and even too much for the carcass. 3/4
>>is at best only okay for the shelves, real wood planking would be a vast
>>improvement. But, if you choose the 3/4, then you should angle iron or
>>c-channel the front and back edges to avoid the inevitable future sag.
>
>There is so much wrong here, it is difficult to know where to start.

You start with an arc welder. :)

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 9:51:58 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 8:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 11/9/17 7:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
> >>> On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>> On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote=
:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
> >>>>>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
> >>>>>> stiffening (or center support).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Agree.=C2=A0 I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.=C2=A0 Pa=
rticle board
> >>>>> or MDF, not sure.=C2=A0 Shelves are 3/4".=C2=A0 30" width.=C2=A0 Th=
e ones with heavy
> >>>>> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.=C2=A0 1/4" bow probably=
.
> >>>>> Noticeable.=C2=A0 Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap pa=
rticle
> >>>>> board or MDF shelves.=C2=A0 But strong enough to avoid bowing?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4=
"
> >>>> plywood shelves.
> >>>> It does two things.
> >>>> It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
> >>>> It also looks better in most cases.=C2=A0 I've never liked the look =
of 3/4"
> >>>> thick shelves.=C2=A0 They look cheap.=C2=A0 They look WalMart or Ike=
a.
> >>>> Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just=20
> >>>> *make* it
> >>>> more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
> >>>> It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-fram=
e.
> >>>> Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of
> >>> course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look=
=20
> >>> to be
> >>> rather thin so perhaps he wants that look.
> >>
> >> No, you're looking way too deep into the picture I posted, but I poste=
d
> >> it, so I'll take the blame. ;-)
> >>
> >> Look no further than 2 matching units, each with a 2 door base cabinet=
=20
> >> that
> >> is a few inches deeper than the book case. One on each side of a windo=
w.
> >>
> >>> I built in 16 feet of
> >>> floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have=
=20
> >>> rather
> >>> stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a _ver=
y_
> >>> heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag even=
=20
> >>> with
> >>> a full load of heavy books.
> >>
> >> Each unit will be ~34" in total width, so ~32" shelves. 3/4" would be =
too
> >> wimpy both in form and function, so there will definitely be some edgi=
ng
> >> used. Not 2-1/4" though. :-)
> >>
> >=20
> > IMO, you could get away with a uniform (same thickness as plywood) edge=
=20
> > band, front and back.=C2=A0 Or a 1-1/4"-ish front edge band, rabbeted, =
like=20
> > this...
> >=20
> > http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg
> >=20
> > I have done dozens like this and it's extremely strong.
> >=20
>=20
> Oh, and by the way... I went through all the fancy techniques of solid=20
> edge banding to a shelf. V-groove, tongue and groove, spline, etc.,=20
> etc., etc.
>=20
> This was by far the simplest and just as strong as the rest.
>=20
> You can clamp two shelves at one time, like this....
> http://mikedrums.com/shelfclamps.jpg
> In fact, I got to the point where I made the banding wider, with a=20
> rabbet on both sides, glued a shelf to each side, then ran the whole=20
> thing through the table saw, cutting through the center of the band, to=
=20
> split it into the two shelves.
>=20
> You leave the banding proud of the shelf top, then trim it flush with a=
=20
> pattern bit. Lickety split.
>=20
>=20

Oh, to have the space that you have. Any *one* of your double glue ups=20
would take up most of my shop. ;-)

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 1:48:26 AM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:05:22 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> =20
> > When I built the cabinet for my miter saw, I went to HD looking to buy =
some=20
> > 3/4" plywood. I'm pretty sure that the pine plywood that you are talkin=
g about=20
> > is what I ended up buying. Nice stuff, but I think it might only be 6 p=
ly.
> >=20
> > https://i.imgur.com/WObABm2.jpg
> >=20
> > Is it this product?
> >=20
> > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pine-Plywood-Common-23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-=
Actual-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-799397/202677224=20
>=20
> Well, I am dumbfounded. A commercial account at HD for 33 years, shoppin=
g there all the time, and I have never noticed that stuff. It HAS to be it=
. I pulled my HD receipt and that is the only thing that matches the descr=
iption and price on the receipt.
>=20
> I counted the plies on a pic I had of the finished cabinet and it is clea=
rly 7.
> =20
> > Now that you reminded me, maybe that's the way to go for these bookcase=
s. They
> > are going in a kitchen and that plywood probably has a better surface t=
han the=20
> > stick builts already in place. Besides, screwing up a $32 sheet beats s=
crewing
> > up a $76 sheet. ;-)
>=20
> I wouldn't give a second thought to buying that for any paint grade proje=
ct. One of the problems I have with some of the birch products is that the=
y don't always hold paint well. No idea why. This stuff grabbed the finis=
h well.
>=20
> To lower my level of exasperation in dealing with HD, I always look onlin=
e for products and email myself their location so I can walk in, grab what =
I want, and go. I have found that they do not update their product descrip=
tions as needed, certainly their quantity count is almost always wrong, and=
even the descriptions don't match. It comes from having a busy IT person =
that doesn't understand the product nomenclature.
>=20
> So... apparently I have been searching the same store over and over since=
I established it as "my Home Depot", the one by my office. It is a small =
HD, and they simply don't have the room for that stuff. The HD where it wa=
s purchased is double the size of "mine", and they show 51 sheets.
>=20
> Sombitch.
>=20
> I haven't had any luck with HD's other ply products, even the "Sande" stu=
ff. Even my HD rep couldn't tell me what the face ply is on that product. =
We think that it is some kind of softer maple, but then another batch comes=
in and it looks more like birch. His inquiry to their supplier is that "it=
depends" on the batch. Regardless of what it actually is, I have had a lo=
t of problems with chipping, and the veneer peeling. It is hard to transpo=
rt to the job as the edges are very fragile. I will buy my "Chiliply" befo=
re I get that stuff. I have even had the veneer raise in a vein about 4" lo=
ng and the width of a pencil when finishing with one of my ammonia laden la=
tex enamels.
>=20
> DD3, thanks for taking the time to post the link. On one hand I feel like=
a palm plant on my forehead is in order, but then in the other hand I am g=
lad to know I can get it at the next closest store when I need it.
>=20
> Robert

Just trying to give back a little. :-)

On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 3:18:22 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/10/17 1:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 11/9/17 5:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGaw
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>>>> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like
> >>>>>> these:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood,
> >>>>>> something I've never used before. A local lumber yard
> >>>>>> quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home Depot has (what they
> >>>>>> call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What
> >>>>>> does the extra $25 get me at the lumber yard?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4"
> >>>>>> for the shelves and top of base?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the
> >>>>> price difference. And or if it is stain quality or simply
> >>>>> paint quality.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but
> >>>>> IMHO not enough savings to offset the extra effort of dealing
> >>>>> with different thicknesses of wood and plywood.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and
> >>>> check out MDO plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer
> >>>> and paints beautifully. 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill
> >>>> since the forces are cross-surface but it certainly can't hurt.
> >>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you
> >>>> are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some
> >>>> form of stiffening (or center support).
> >>>
> >>> It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to
> >>> hide the core, add some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening.
> >>> Form and function. There will be a face frame too. ;-)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>
> >> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
> >> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load. In my
> >> opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
> >>
> >> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Nice. How deep are your shelves? The actual shelves, not including
> > the face frame. Are you happy with what you choose as a depth?
> >
> > I know that it all depends on what the shelves will be used for, and
> > I have dimension in mind for my project, but I'm just curious as to
> > what depth you chose, why you chose it and how it's worked out after
> > all these years.
> >
>
> There are actually in a friend/client's home, not mine.
> But IIRC, they were nominal depths of 12" and 16".
> 8-12" is considered "book" depth and 16" is a "cabinet" depth for
> scrapbooks and things like that. That's the theoretical application for
> those sizes. However, there are practical reasons beyond what size
> things will be on them.
>
> Consider a sheet of plywood at 48" x 96". Those are both perfect
> multiples of 12 and 16.
> This means you can get the most out of an entire sheet of plywood with
> no waste. What about the saw kerf, you ask? That's why I call it
> "nominal" sizing.
>
> Using these rough sizes allows you to quickly tear down your sheet good
> to rough sizes (even using a circular saw and straightedge). Then you
> can add your hardwood edge banding, then rip to finished size. You
> probably can see in the pic, but I'm pretty sure I put edge bands on
> both sides of the shelves. I stood on some and had no deflection. The
> center shelves are fixed to add stability/strength to the cases.
>
> The clients recently moved out of the home and were disappointed to
> leave them there.
> They told me they still looked and performed like new.
> BTW, I made every piece of trim and door "from scratch."
>

Thanks. My plan is for 12" shelves which should work for all of SWMBO's
cookbooks and cooking magazines. 16" should work for the base cabinets.

The main issue is that SWMBO and I don't visualize things the same way.
She can't picture those dimensions in her head even when I stand there
with a tape measure and show her what 12" and 16" is. You would not want
her as a client. ;-) On the other hand, if you are longing for a great
meal, she's the one to call.

I've decided that I am going to get some poster board from the dollar store
and build a full scale mock-up of one unit so she can alter the dimensions
before I put blade to wood. It'll protect me and keep me sane.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 5:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
> >> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
> >>>>
> >>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, somethin=
g I've
> >>>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 shee=
t. Home
> >>>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
> >>>>
> >>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the=
extra
> >>>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
> >>>>
> >>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the she=
lves
> >>>> and top of base?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks!
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the price
> >>> difference.=C2=A0 And or if it is stain quality or simply paint quali=
ty.
> >>>
> >>> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but IMHO not en=
ough
> >>> savings to offset the extra effort of dealing with different thicknes=
ses of
> >>> wood and plywood.
> >>
> >> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and check out =
MDO
> >> plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer and paints beautifull=
y.
> >> 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill since the forces are cross-surfac=
e but
> >> it certainly can't hurt. For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be
> >> sufficient if you are actually going to put books on the shelves so pl=
an on
> >> some form of stiffening (or center support).
> >=20
> > It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to hide the=
core, add
> > some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening. Form and function. There w=
ill be a face
> > frame too. ;-)
> >=20
> > Thanks.
> >=20
>=20
> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and=20
> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load.
> In my opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
>=20
> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
>=20
>=20

Nice. How deep are your shelves? The actual shelves, not including the face=
frame. Are you happy with what you choose as a depth?

I know that it all depends on what the shelves will be used for, and I have=
=20
dimension in mind for my project, but I'm just curious as to what depth you
chose, why you chose it and how it's worked out after all these years.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:05:22 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
=20
> When I built the cabinet for my miter saw, I went to HD looking to buy so=
me=20
> 3/4" plywood. I'm pretty sure that the pine plywood that you are talking =
about=20
> is what I ended up buying. Nice stuff, but I think it might only be 6 ply=
.
>=20
> https://i.imgur.com/WObABm2.jpg
>=20
> Is it this product?
>=20
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pine-Plywood-Common-23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Ac=
tual-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-799397/202677224=20

Well, I am dumbfounded. A commercial account at HD for 33 years, shopping =
there all the time, and I have never noticed that stuff. It HAS to be it. =
I pulled my HD receipt and that is the only thing that matches the descrip=
tion and price on the receipt.

I counted the plies on a pic I had of the finished cabinet and it is clearl=
y 7.
=20
> Now that you reminded me, maybe that's the way to go for these bookcases.=
They
> are going in a kitchen and that plywood probably has a better surface tha=
n the=20
> stick builts already in place. Besides, screwing up a $32 sheet beats scr=
ewing
> up a $76 sheet. ;-)

I wouldn't give a second thought to buying that for any paint grade project=
. One of the problems I have with some of the birch products is that they =
don't always hold paint well. No idea why. This stuff grabbed the finish =
well.

To lower my level of exasperation in dealing with HD, I always look online =
for products and email myself their location so I can walk in, grab what I =
want, and go. I have found that they do not update their product descripti=
ons as needed, certainly their quantity count is almost always wrong, and e=
ven the descriptions don't match. It comes from having a busy IT person th=
at doesn't understand the product nomenclature.

So... apparently I have been searching the same store over and over since I=
established it as "my Home Depot", the one by my office. It is a small HD=
, and they simply don't have the room for that stuff. The HD where it was =
purchased is double the size of "mine", and they show 51 sheets.

Sombitch.

I haven't had any luck with HD's other ply products, even the "Sande" stuff=
. Even my HD rep couldn't tell me what the face ply is on that product. We=
think that it is some kind of softer maple, but then another batch comes i=
n and it looks more like birch. His inquiry to their supplier is that "it d=
epends" on the batch. Regardless of what it actually is, I have had a lot =
of problems with chipping, and the veneer peeling. It is hard to transport=
to the job as the edges are very fragile. I will buy my "Chiliply" before=
I get that stuff. I have even had the veneer raise in a vein about 4" long=
and the width of a pencil when finishing with one of my ammonia laden late=
x enamels.

DD3, thanks for taking the time to post the link. On one hand I feel like a=
palm plant on my forehead is in order, but then in the other hand I am gla=
d to know I can get it at the next closest store when I need it.

Robert

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 8:14:08 AM UTC-5, Iggy wrote:
> replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
> You'll have to visually inspect them both. Rumor has it that the Lumber Yard
> still gets the furniture-grade plywood with a decent veneer thickness, I
> haven't found this to be true at 2 of the Lumber Yards around me. HD's
> however, is too thin to ever be refinish sanded.
> >
> Otherwise, 5/8's is definitely plenty and even too much for the carcass. 3/4
> is at best only okay for the shelves, real wood planking would be a vast
> improvement. But, if you choose the 3/4, then you should angle iron or
> c-channel the front and back edges to avoid the inevitable future sag.
>

Why do you snip our posts to such an extent that there absolutely no context left?

On 11/9/2017 1:34 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>
> Why do you snip our posts to such an extent that there absolutely no context left?
>


This question, which will never be answered to your satisfaction, is
annoying to the rest of us. ;~(

On 11/9/2017 5:20 PM, [email protected] wrote:
Snip

>
> Not too sure what to make of all the nonsense posted by the guy that hasn't seen the end results of his work years later.


+10


Build to last a hundred years or more and build so that some one a
hundred years later knows you knew what you were doing.

Your time is the most valuable think to put into your work. Cutting
corners discounts your effort.

On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>
>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home
>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>
>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>
>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
>> and top of base?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>
>
> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the price
> difference.  And or if it is stain quality or simply paint quality.
>
> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but IMHO not enough
> savings to offset the extra effort of dealing with different thicknesses of
> wood and plywood.

If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and check out MDO
plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer and paints beautifully.
3/4" for the carcase may be overkill since the forces are cross-surface but
it certainly can't hurt. For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be
sufficient if you are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on
some form of stiffening (or center support).

Iggy <[email protected]> writes:
>replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
>You'll have to visually inspect them both. Rumor has it that the Lumber Yard
>still gets the furniture-grade plywood with a decent veneer thickness, I
>haven't found this to be true at 2 of the Lumber Yards around me. HD's
>however, is too thin to ever be refinish sanded.
>>
>Otherwise, 5/8's is definitely plenty and even too much for the carcass. 3/4
>is at best only okay for the shelves, real wood planking would be a vast
>improvement. But, if you choose the 3/4, then you should angle iron or
>c-channel the front and back edges to avoid the inevitable future sag.

There is so much wrong here, it is difficult to know where to start.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:07 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 5:45:16 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
> >=20
> > https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
> >=20
> > They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I=
've
> > never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. =
Home
> > Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
> >=20
> > I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the ex=
tra=20
> > $25 get me at the lumber yard?
> >=20
> > P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelve=
s
> > and top of base?
> >=20
> > Thanks!
>=20
> I don't know how familiar you are with your Home Depot's product lines, b=
ut I can tell you from experience that it can vary wildly. If I am looking=
for a certain plywood, I drive to the nearest store and look at their stoc=
k.
>=20
> A couple of days ago I was ready to build a "one off" carcass to replace =
the large sink cabinet damaged by a bad leak at a client's house. I went to=
the closest HD looking for A/B, B/C, economy "cab ply", or even this unide=
ntified paint grade stuff from Chile they have once in a while. I found so=
mething called "pine ply" or similar. It was A/B in appearance, but all ha=
rd pine. No footballs, good veneer thickness, 8 layers of material (!!!), =
and really clean. Never seen it before. It was about $30 a sheet.
>=20
> Got it back to operating table, and laid out my cut patterns and wound up=
using almost all of it, the point being lots of cuts, probably 30 lineal f=
eet or so. ONE void, just one about the size of a pencil eraser in one of =
the layers. That's it. Held screws, brads, etc., with no problems and whe=
n using my countersink, it didn't splinter.
>=20
> If I had a place to put this stuff I would go buy about 5 sheets and put =
it back for my own use. I know that next time I need it they may (probably=
not) have it. We primed it with a roller on one side (interior of the cab=
inet painted per client) and put on a coat of paint before cutting. Assembl=
ed, we put on one more coat on the floor of the cab after the plumbing was =
reinstalled and I have to say it looks great. It sanded great, no splinter=
ing, and holds paint just fine.
>=20
> Don't fall into the hole of thinking you will get a better quality of ply=
wood from a distributor. Around here, the local wholesaler (DixiePly)sells=
a great deal of the same stuff in the big boxes. The stuff in limited sup=
ply like the cab ply from Chile (affectionately called "Chiliply" by me) is=
an HD exclusive so directly to them in lots. Most quality plywoods come f=
rom the local guys where available.
>=20
> Not too sure what to make of all the nonsense posted by the guy that hasn=
't seen the end results of his work years later. The carcass should be 3/4=
". Thickness of your shelves should be predicated on their load. When buil=
ding for all books, I use 3/4" plyood with a fascia (usually around 1x2) to=
compliment the style of the cabinet, and put a piece on the back of the sh=
elf to keep the overall dimensions. I have seen my work with that detail h=
old a library of law books, and a specialty open back cabinet to display la=
rge porcelain objects go for years without sag.
>=20
> That being said, I also have used a 5/8" plywood on shelves. I put a flu=
ted edge band on the show side and it looks and works great. The shelves h=
old kitchen towels, tablecloths, cloth napkins in a utility hutch that look=
a bit more finished in that small, skinny cabinet.
>=20
> I would find out what was going to be in the cabinet, decide if the shelv=
es are to be adjustable, and take a look from there.
>=20
> As always, just my 0.02. But I would take a look and see if I could find =
that plywood at HD...
>=20
> Robert

When I built the cabinet for my miter saw, I went to HD looking to buy some=
=20
3/4" plywood. I'm pretty sure that the pine plywood that you are talking ab=
out=20
is what I ended up buying. Nice stuff, but I think it might only be 6 ply.

https://i.imgur.com/WObABm2.jpg

Is it this product?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pine-Plywood-Common-23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actu=
al-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-799397/202677224=20

Now that you reminded me, maybe that's the way to go for these bookcases. T=
hey
are going in a kitchen and that plywood probably has a better surface than =
the=20
stick builts already in place. Besides, screwing up a $32 sheet beats screw=
ing
up a $76 sheet. ;-)

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
> On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
> >>>
> >>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
> >>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
> >>> stiffening (or center support).
> >>
> >> Agree.=C2=A0 I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.=C2=A0 Parti=
cle board
> >> or MDF, not sure.=C2=A0 Shelves are 3/4".=C2=A0 30" width.=C2=A0 The o=
nes with heavy
> >> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.=C2=A0 1/4" bow probably.
> >> Noticeable.=C2=A0 Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap parti=
cle
> >> board or MDF shelves.=C2=A0 But strong enough to avoid bowing?
> >>
> >=20
> > It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"=
=20
> > plywood shelves.
> > It does two things.
> > It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
> > It also looks better in most cases.=C2=A0 I've never liked the look of =
3/4"=20
> > thick shelves.=C2=A0 They look cheap.=C2=A0 They look WalMart or Ikea.
> > Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just *make=
* it=20
> > more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
> > It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.=
=20
> > Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
> >=20
> >=20
> Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of=20
> course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look to b=
e=20
> rather thin so perhaps he wants that look.=20

No, you're looking way too deep into the picture I posted, but I posted
it, so I'll take the blame. ;-)

Look no further than 2 matching units, each with a 2 door base cabinet that=
=20
is a few inches deeper than the book case. One on each side of a window.

> I built in 16 feet of=20
> floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have rath=
er=20
> stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a _very_=
=20
> heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag even wit=
h=20
> a full load of heavy books.

Each unit will be ~34" in total width, so ~32" shelves. 3/4" would be too=
=20
wimpy both in form and function, so there will definitely be some edging=20
used. Not 2-1/4" though. :-)

On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>>>
>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
>>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
>>> stiffening (or center support).
>>
>> Agree.  I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.  Particle board
>> or MDF, not sure.  Shelves are 3/4".  30" width.  The ones with heavy
>> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.  1/4" bow probably.
>> Noticeable.  Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle
>> board or MDF shelves.  But strong enough to avoid bowing?
>>
>
> It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"
> plywood shelves.
> It does two things.
> It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
> It also looks better in most cases.  I've never liked the look of 3/4"
> thick shelves.  They look cheap.  They look WalMart or Ikea.
> Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just *make* it
> more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
> It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.
> Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
>
>
Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of
course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look to be
rather thin so perhaps he wants that look. I built in 16 feet of
floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have rather
stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a _very_
heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag even with
a full load of heavy books.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 7:19:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 6:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:07 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wr=
ote:
> >> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 5:45:16 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
> >>>
> >>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
> >>>
> >>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something=
I've
> >>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet=
. Home
> >>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
> >>>
> >>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the =
extra
> >>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
> >>>
> >>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shel=
ves
> >>> and top of base?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>
> >> I don't know how familiar you are with your Home Depot's product lines=
, but I can tell you from experience that it can vary wildly. If I am look=
ing for a certain plywood, I drive to the nearest store and look at their s=
tock.
> >>
> >> A couple of days ago I was ready to build a "one off" carcass to repla=
ce the large sink cabinet damaged by a bad leak at a client's house. I went=
to the closest HD looking for A/B, B/C, economy "cab ply", or even this un=
identified paint grade stuff from Chile they have once in a while. I found=
something called "pine ply" or similar. It was A/B in appearance, but all=
hard pine. No footballs, good veneer thickness, 8 layers of material (!!!=
), and really clean. Never seen it before. It was about $30 a sheet.
> >>
> >> Got it back to operating table, and laid out my cut patterns and wound=
up using almost all of it, the point being lots of cuts, probably 30 linea=
l feet or so. ONE void, just one about the size of a pencil eraser in one =
of the layers. That's it. Held screws, brads, etc., with no problems and =
when using my countersink, it didn't splinter.
> >>
> >> If I had a place to put this stuff I would go buy about 5 sheets and p=
ut it back for my own use. I know that next time I need it they may (proba=
bly not) have it. We primed it with a roller on one side (interior of the =
cabinet painted per client) and put on a coat of paint before cutting. Asse=
mbled, we put on one more coat on the floor of the cab after the plumbing w=
as reinstalled and I have to say it looks great. It sanded great, no splin=
tering, and holds paint just fine.
> >>
> >> Don't fall into the hole of thinking you will get a better quality of =
plywood from a distributor. Around here, the local wholesaler (DixiePly)se=
lls a great deal of the same stuff in the big boxes. The stuff in limited =
supply like the cab ply from Chile (affectionately called "Chiliply" by me)=
is an HD exclusive so directly to them in lots. Most quality plywoods com=
e from the local guys where available.
> >>
> >> Not too sure what to make of all the nonsense posted by the guy that h=
asn't seen the end results of his work years later. The carcass should be =
3/4". Thickness of your shelves should be predicated on their load. When b=
uilding for all books, I use 3/4" plyood with a fascia (usually around 1x2)=
to compliment the style of the cabinet, and put a piece on the back of the=
shelf to keep the overall dimensions. I have seen my work with that detai=
l hold a library of law books, and a specialty open back cabinet to display=
large porcelain objects go for years without sag.
> >>
> >> That being said, I also have used a 5/8" plywood on shelves. I put a =
fluted edge band on the show side and it looks and works great. The shelve=
s hold kitchen towels, tablecloths, cloth napkins in a utility hutch that l=
ook a bit more finished in that small, skinny cabinet.
> >>
> >> I would find out what was going to be in the cabinet, decide if the sh=
elves are to be adjustable, and take a look from there.
> >>
> >> As always, just my 0.02. But I would take a look and see if I could fi=
nd that plywood at HD...
> >>
> >> Robert
> >=20
> > When I built the cabinet for my miter saw, I went to HD looking to buy =
some
> > 3/4" plywood. I'm pretty sure that the pine plywood that you are talkin=
g about
> > is what I ended up buying. Nice stuff, but I think it might only be 6 p=
ly.
> >=20
> > https://i.imgur.com/WObABm2.jpg
> >=20
> > Is it this product?
> >=20
> > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pine-Plywood-Common-23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-=
Actual-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-799397/202677224
> >=20
> > Now that you reminded me, maybe that's the way to go for these bookcase=
s. They
> > are going in a kitchen and that plywood probably has a better surface t=
han the
> > stick builts already in place. Besides, screwing up a $32 sheet beats s=
crewing
> > up a $76 sheet. ;-)
> >=20
>=20
> I don't think that's the stuff. It's listed as sheathing, and I'm=20
> pretty sure the plywood that we're talking about was at least 7 ply and=
=20
> had one grade higher outer veneers.
>=20
> However, I'm 99% sure that this all varies by region, so even though we=
=20
> may not be talking apples and oranges... we may be talking Granny Smith=
=20
> and Golden Delicious. :-)
>=20
>=20

Again, not arguing, but I'm not sure that I would put a lot of weight=20
behind an HD "category listing". Further down the page it says:

Ideal for cabinets, displays, fixtures, furniture and shelving
Ready to paint
Interior use only
Stable composed core

Of course, there is also this, for only $8 more. Looks like at least 7 ply,
but it's not listed as Pine, so it's probably not what we were talking abou=
t.
How ever, it might work for my project.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sande-Plywood-Common-3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actua=
l-0-709-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-454559/100037820

Sandeplywood delivers durable beauty in cabinets, furniture, shelving,=20
wall panels, entertainment centers, tables and varouis (sic) interior=20
projects.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 5:20:43 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load.
> In my opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
>
> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg

Nice work! Just shows that matching the material to the project is the key. I think 3/4" would have looked a little "60s handyman" there myself.

Robert

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 1:04:36 PM UTC-8, [email protected] wro=
te:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:

> ... white plastic coated bookshelves. Particle board or MDF, not sure. =
Shelves are 3/4". 30" width. The ones with heavy books in the middle do h=
ave noticeable bow. 1/4" bow probably. Noticeable. Plywood would likely =
be stronger than my cheap particle board or MDF shelves.=20

Sag strength of plywood is half that of solid wood (half the grain is runni=
ng the wrong way!),
and MDF usually doesn't hold a load for long times (even if it's stiff enou=
gh, it's not STABLE).

Inexpensive whitewood, or knotty SPF, makes good shelves, and you can alway=
s glue on
a decorative edge. At 30", it'll hold anything booklike without sagging. =
Just try to get a non-cupped
plank for the job.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
> > On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
> >>
> >> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
> >>
> >> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something =
I've
> >> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet.=
Home
> >> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
> >>
> >> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the e=
xtra
> >> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
> >>
> >> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelv=
es
> >> and top of base?
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >=20
> >=20
> > Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the price=20
> > difference.=C2=A0 And or if it is stain quality or simply paint quality=
.
> >=20
> > I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but IMHO not enou=
gh=20
> > savings to offset the extra effort of dealing with different thicknesse=
s of=20
> > wood and plywood.
>=20
> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and check out MDO=
=20
> plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer and paints beautifully.=
=20
> 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill since the forces are cross-surface b=
ut=20
> it certainly can't hurt. For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be=20
> sufficient if you are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan =
on=20
> some form of stiffening (or center support).

It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to hide the cor=
e, add=20
some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening. Form and function. There will =
be a face=20
frame too. ;-)

Thanks.

On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:49:55 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
> news:[email protected]...
> > I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
> >
> > https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
> >
> > They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I=
've
> > never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet.=
=20
> > Home
> > Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
> >
> > I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the ex=
tra
> > $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>=20
> Several things, possibly, singly or in combination...
>=20
> 1. better face veneers. A2 vs D4, eg
> 2. made in US vs elsewhere
> 3. better interior veneers, fewer voids, etc.
>=20
> > P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelve=
s
> > and top of base?
>=20
> Strength wise, yes. But why bother if you are buying 3/4 anyway?=20
> Masochistic? :)

(This may sound like I'm arguing, but I'm not. I'm just trying to understan=
d your=20

The concept of using 2 thicknesses of wood was something that crossed my mi=
nd, but if the=20
cut list works out that there is no real overlap between the wood for the c=
arcass and the wood=20
for the shelves, they why not save weight and money?

When I build a bed, I use different thicknesses for the rails than I do for=
the head and=20
foot boards. Why wouldn't that same concept apply to the thickness of the p=
lywood
used for different parts of a book case or hutch?

e.g. 4 sheets of 5/8" for the carcasses, 2 sheets of 3/4" for the shelves, =
assuming of=20
course that I'm not going to end up with a lot of waste of either. I don't=
yet know if that=20
will be the case, but if it works out, why would that be masochistic?=20

Heck, I'm going to use 1/4" plywood for the backs, not 3/4=E2=80=9D. Why is=
that any different than=20
using 5/8" for the carcass and 3/4=E2=80=9D for shelves?

On 11/8/17 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>
> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>
> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home
> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>
> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>
> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
> and top of base?
>
> Thanks!
>

In my experience, the HD stuff varies by lot. You must inspect and you
can get lucky.
I've gotten some incredible plywood from HD/Lowes for very cheap.
I've also seen horrible, warped, out-of-square crap there.
If you're looking at $75/sheet, you might want to look at plywood with
MDF outer veneers. Best of both worlds and paints up smooth and easy.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Wed, 8 Nov 2017 15:45:13 -0800 (PST)
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:

> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something
> I've never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8
> sheet. Home Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.

mdf core is more stable

or go with half inch marine ply

On 11/9/17 8:41 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Iggy <[email protected]> writes:
>> replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
>> You'll have to visually inspect them both. Rumor has it that the Lumber Yard
>> still gets the furniture-grade plywood with a decent veneer thickness, I
>> haven't found this to be true at 2 of the Lumber Yards around me. HD's
>> however, is too thin to ever be refinish sanded.
>>>
>> Otherwise, 5/8's is definitely plenty and even too much for the carcass. 3/4
>> is at best only okay for the shelves, real wood planking would be a vast
>> improvement. But, if you choose the 3/4, then you should angle iron or
>> c-channel the front and back edges to avoid the inevitable future sag.
>
> There is so much wrong here, it is difficult to know where to start.
>

Exactly. I was about to reply but then I was like, "no, what good would
it do?"


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>
> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>
> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet.
> Home
> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>
> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
> $25 get me at the lumber yard?

Several things, possibly, singly or in combination...

1. better face veneers. A2 vs D4, eg
2. made in US vs elsewhere
3. better interior veneers, fewer voids, etc.

> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
> and top of base?

Strength wise, yes. But why bother if you are buying 3/4 anyway?
Masochistic? :)

On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>>
>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
>> stiffening (or center support).
>
> Agree. I have some white plastic coated bookshelves. Particle board
> or MDF, not sure. Shelves are 3/4". 30" width. The ones with heavy
> books in the middle do have noticeable bow. 1/4" bow probably.
> Noticeable. Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle
> board or MDF shelves. But strong enough to avoid bowing?
>

It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"
plywood shelves.
It does two things.
It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
It also looks better in most cases. I've never liked the look of 3/4"
thick shelves. They look cheap. They look WalMart or Ikea.
Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just *make*
it more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.
Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 5:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
>> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>>>>
>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>>>
>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
>>>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home
>>>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>>>
>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
>>>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>>>
>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
>>>> and top of base?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the price
>>> difference.  And or if it is stain quality or simply paint quality.
>>>
>>> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but IMHO not enough
>>> savings to offset the extra effort of dealing with different thicknesses of
>>> wood and plywood.
>>
>> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and check out MDO
>> plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer and paints beautifully.
>> 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill since the forces are cross-surface but
>> it certainly can't hurt. For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be
>> sufficient if you are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on
>> some form of stiffening (or center support).
>
> It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to hide the core, add
> some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening. Form and function. There will be a face
> frame too. ;-)
>
> Thanks.
>

These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load.
In my opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.

http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 5:20 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 5:45:16 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
> wrote:
>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>
>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood,
>> something I've never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me
>> ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood
>> for ~$50.
>>
>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does
>> the extra $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>
>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the
>> shelves and top of base?
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> I don't know how familiar you are with your Home Depot's product
> lines, but I can tell you from experience that it can vary wildly.
> If I am looking for a certain plywood, I drive to the nearest store
> and look at their stock.
>
> A couple of days ago I was ready to build a "one off" carcass to
> replace the large sink cabinet damaged by a bad leak at a client's
> house. I went to the closest HD looking for A/B, B/C, economy "cab
> ply", or even this unidentified paint grade stuff from Chile they
> have once in a while. I found something called "pine ply" or
> similar. It was A/B in appearance, but all hard pine. No footballs,
> good veneer thickness, 8 layers of material (!!!), and really clean.
> Never seen it before. It was about $30 a sheet.
>
>
> As always, just my 0.02. But I would take a look and see if I could
> find that plywood at HD...
>
> Robert
>

That's the stuff I get at my HD, occasionally, and it's really great
stuff.
It's always on an aisle end cap which tells me it's not a normally
stocked item, but something they get in now and then from a really
cheap, bulk purchase somewhere.

It's always right around 30 bucks after tax and always straight, flat,
solid... nice.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 5:34 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 5:20:43 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
>
>> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
>> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load. In my
>> opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
>>
>> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
>
> Nice work! Just shows that matching the material to the project is
> the key. I think 3/4" would have looked a little "60s handyman"
> there myself.
>
> Robert
>

It's all about scale and perspective-- something that stuck with me from
the 15 minutes I spent in architecture school. :-)

On an 18inch shelf in a 3ft high bookcase, yeah it probably looks fine.
But not on a 4ft shelf, 8ft high, across a 12ft wall.

I'm building some baby gates that are modeled after the staircase
handrail and spindles in the home it will be installed. I'm scaling
down the dimensions of the spindles to more accurately reflect the scale
of the gate. Almost like they will look the same size when viewed from
a distance. If I made them the exact same size, they would look way too
big. A little bit makes a big difference.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 5:36 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:49:55 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>>>
>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>>
>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
>>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet.
>>> Home
>>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>>
>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
>>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>
>> Several things, possibly, singly or in combination...
>>
>> 1. better face veneers. A2 vs D4, eg
>> 2. made in US vs elsewhere
>> 3. better interior veneers, fewer voids, etc.
>>
>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
>>> and top of base?
>>
>> Strength wise, yes. But why bother if you are buying 3/4 anyway?
>> Masochistic? :)
>
> (This may sound like I'm arguing, but I'm not. I'm just trying to understand your
>
> The concept of using 2 thicknesses of wood was something that crossed my mind, but if the
> cut list works out that there is no real overlap between the wood for the carcass and the wood
> for the shelves, they why not save weight and money?
>
> When I build a bed, I use different thicknesses for the rails than I do for the head and
> foot boards. Why wouldn't that same concept apply to the thickness of the plywood
> used for different parts of a book case or hutch?
>
> e.g. 4 sheets of 5/8" for the carcasses, 2 sheets of 3/4" for the shelves, assuming of
> course that I'm not going to end up with a lot of waste of either. I don't yet know if that
> will be the case, but if it works out, why would that be masochistic?
>
> Heck, I'm going to use 1/4" plywood for the backs, not 3/4”. Why is that any different than
> using 5/8" for the carcass and 3/4” for shelves?
>

Because all the 1/4" ply is doing is keeping it square, preventing it
from racking. It's not providing (or doesn't need to) any strength to
the cabinet.

Most cabinet builders have 3/4" ply on the brain. It's easy to
calculate and dimensional hardwoods are already sized for it. It
"matches" hardwood boards so it makes hybrid construction fairly
seamless.
There's a reason it's the standard and it's not because "Big Plywood"
wants to make more money off of you.

You're not really saving that much money on 5/8" are you?
Either way, go ahead and do it and learn from the process.
Come back here and report your findings. You may teach us something.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 6:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:07 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 5:45:16 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>>>
>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>>
>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
>>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home
>>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>>
>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
>>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>>
>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
>>> and top of base?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>
>> I don't know how familiar you are with your Home Depot's product lines, but I can tell you from experience that it can vary wildly. If I am looking for a certain plywood, I drive to the nearest store and look at their stock.
>>
>> A couple of days ago I was ready to build a "one off" carcass to replace the large sink cabinet damaged by a bad leak at a client's house. I went to the closest HD looking for A/B, B/C, economy "cab ply", or even this unidentified paint grade stuff from Chile they have once in a while. I found something called "pine ply" or similar. It was A/B in appearance, but all hard pine. No footballs, good veneer thickness, 8 layers of material (!!!), and really clean. Never seen it before. It was about $30 a sheet.
>>
>> Got it back to operating table, and laid out my cut patterns and wound up using almost all of it, the point being lots of cuts, probably 30 lineal feet or so. ONE void, just one about the size of a pencil eraser in one of the layers. That's it. Held screws, brads, etc., with no problems and when using my countersink, it didn't splinter.
>>
>> If I had a place to put this stuff I would go buy about 5 sheets and put it back for my own use. I know that next time I need it they may (probably not) have it. We primed it with a roller on one side (interior of the cabinet painted per client) and put on a coat of paint before cutting. Assembled, we put on one more coat on the floor of the cab after the plumbing was reinstalled and I have to say it looks great. It sanded great, no splintering, and holds paint just fine.
>>
>> Don't fall into the hole of thinking you will get a better quality of plywood from a distributor. Around here, the local wholesaler (DixiePly)sells a great deal of the same stuff in the big boxes. The stuff in limited supply like the cab ply from Chile (affectionately called "Chiliply" by me) is an HD exclusive so directly to them in lots. Most quality plywoods come from the local guys where available.
>>
>> Not too sure what to make of all the nonsense posted by the guy that hasn't seen the end results of his work years later. The carcass should be 3/4". Thickness of your shelves should be predicated on their load. When building for all books, I use 3/4" plyood with a fascia (usually around 1x2) to compliment the style of the cabinet, and put a piece on the back of the shelf to keep the overall dimensions. I have seen my work with that detail hold a library of law books, and a specialty open back cabinet to display large porcelain objects go for years without sag.
>>
>> That being said, I also have used a 5/8" plywood on shelves. I put a fluted edge band on the show side and it looks and works great. The shelves hold kitchen towels, tablecloths, cloth napkins in a utility hutch that look a bit more finished in that small, skinny cabinet.
>>
>> I would find out what was going to be in the cabinet, decide if the shelves are to be adjustable, and take a look from there.
>>
>> As always, just my 0.02. But I would take a look and see if I could find that plywood at HD...
>>
>> Robert
>
> When I built the cabinet for my miter saw, I went to HD looking to buy some
> 3/4" plywood. I'm pretty sure that the pine plywood that you are talking about
> is what I ended up buying. Nice stuff, but I think it might only be 6 ply.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/WObABm2.jpg
>
> Is it this product?
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pine-Plywood-Common-23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actual-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-799397/202677224
>
> Now that you reminded me, maybe that's the way to go for these bookcases. They
> are going in a kitchen and that plywood probably has a better surface than the
> stick builts already in place. Besides, screwing up a $32 sheet beats screwing
> up a $76 sheet. ;-)
>

I don't think that's the stuff. It's listed as sheathing, and I'm
pretty sure the plywood that we're talking about was at least 7 ply and
had one grade higher outer veneers.

However, I'm 99% sure that this all varies by region, so even though we
may not be talking apples and oranges... we may be talking Granny Smith
and Golden Delicious. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 7:10 PM, John McGaw wrote:
> On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
>>>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
>>>> stiffening (or center support).
>>>
>>> Agree.  I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.  Particle board
>>> or MDF, not sure.  Shelves are 3/4".  30" width.  The ones with heavy
>>> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.  1/4" bow probably.
>>> Noticeable.  Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle
>>> board or MDF shelves.  But strong enough to avoid bowing?
>>>
>>
>> It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"
>> plywood shelves.
>> It does two things.
>> It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
>> It also looks better in most cases.  I've never liked the look of 3/4"
>> thick shelves.  They look cheap.  They look WalMart or Ikea.
>> Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just
>> *make* it more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
>> It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.
>> Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
>>
>>
> Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of
> course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look to
> be rather thin so perhaps he wants that look. I built in 16 feet of
> floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have
> rather stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a
> _very_ heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag
> even with a full load of heavy books.

The ones in his picture wouldn't need any extra bracing, IMO.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 7:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 7:19:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/9/17 6:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:07 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 8, 2017 at 5:45:16 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like these:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>>>>
>>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood, something I've
>>>>> never used before. A local lumber yard quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home
>>>>> Depot has (what they call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What does the extra
>>>>> $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4" for the shelves
>>>>> and top of base?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how familiar you are with your Home Depot's product lines, but I can tell you from experience that it can vary wildly. If I am looking for a certain plywood, I drive to the nearest store and look at their stock.
>>>>
>>>> A couple of days ago I was ready to build a "one off" carcass to replace the large sink cabinet damaged by a bad leak at a client's house. I went to the closest HD looking for A/B, B/C, economy "cab ply", or even this unidentified paint grade stuff from Chile they have once in a while. I found something called "pine ply" or similar. It was A/B in appearance, but all hard pine. No footballs, good veneer thickness, 8 layers of material (!!!), and really clean. Never seen it before. It was about $30 a sheet.
>>>>
>>>> Got it back to operating table, and laid out my cut patterns and wound up using almost all of it, the point being lots of cuts, probably 30 lineal feet or so. ONE void, just one about the size of a pencil eraser in one of the layers. That's it. Held screws, brads, etc., with no problems and when using my countersink, it didn't splinter.
>>>>
>>>> If I had a place to put this stuff I would go buy about 5 sheets and put it back for my own use. I know that next time I need it they may (probably not) have it. We primed it with a roller on one side (interior of the cabinet painted per client) and put on a coat of paint before cutting. Assembled, we put on one more coat on the floor of the cab after the plumbing was reinstalled and I have to say it looks great. It sanded great, no splintering, and holds paint just fine.
>>>>
>>>> Don't fall into the hole of thinking you will get a better quality of plywood from a distributor. Around here, the local wholesaler (DixiePly)sells a great deal of the same stuff in the big boxes. The stuff in limited supply like the cab ply from Chile (affectionately called "Chiliply" by me) is an HD exclusive so directly to them in lots. Most quality plywoods come from the local guys where available.
>>>>
>>>> Not too sure what to make of all the nonsense posted by the guy that hasn't seen the end results of his work years later. The carcass should be 3/4". Thickness of your shelves should be predicated on their load. When building for all books, I use 3/4" plyood with a fascia (usually around 1x2) to compliment the style of the cabinet, and put a piece on the back of the shelf to keep the overall dimensions. I have seen my work with that detail hold a library of law books, and a specialty open back cabinet to display large porcelain objects go for years without sag.
>>>>
>>>> That being said, I also have used a 5/8" plywood on shelves. I put a fluted edge band on the show side and it looks and works great. The shelves hold kitchen towels, tablecloths, cloth napkins in a utility hutch that look a bit more finished in that small, skinny cabinet.
>>>>
>>>> I would find out what was going to be in the cabinet, decide if the shelves are to be adjustable, and take a look from there.
>>>>
>>>> As always, just my 0.02. But I would take a look and see if I could find that plywood at HD...
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>
>>> When I built the cabinet for my miter saw, I went to HD looking to buy some
>>> 3/4" plywood. I'm pretty sure that the pine plywood that you are talking about
>>> is what I ended up buying. Nice stuff, but I think it might only be 6 ply.
>>>
>>> https://i.imgur.com/WObABm2.jpg
>>>
>>> Is it this product?
>>>
>>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pine-Plywood-Common-23-32-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actual-0-688-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-799397/202677224
>>>
>>> Now that you reminded me, maybe that's the way to go for these bookcases. They
>>> are going in a kitchen and that plywood probably has a better surface than the
>>> stick builts already in place. Besides, screwing up a $32 sheet beats screwing
>>> up a $76 sheet. ;-)
>>>
>>
>> I don't think that's the stuff. It's listed as sheathing, and I'm
>> pretty sure the plywood that we're talking about was at least 7 ply and
>> had one grade higher outer veneers.
>>
>> However, I'm 99% sure that this all varies by region, so even though we
>> may not be talking apples and oranges... we may be talking Granny Smith
>> and Golden Delicious. :-)
>>
>>
>
> Again, not arguing, but I'm not sure that I would put a lot of weight
> behind an HD "category listing". Further down the page it says:
>
> Ideal for cabinets, displays, fixtures, furniture and shelving
> Ready to paint
> Interior use only
> Stable composed core
>
> Of course, there is also this, for only $8 more. Looks like at least 7 ply,
> but it's not listed as Pine, so it's probably not what we were talking about.
> How ever, it might work for my project.
>
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sande-Plywood-Common-3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Actual-0-709-in-x-48-in-x-96-in-454559/100037820
>
> Sandeplywood delivers durable beauty in cabinets, furniture, shelving,
> wall panels, entertainment centers, tables and varouis (sic) interior
> projects.
>

Yes, 9 ply (outer veneers count) and higher quality.
More uniform finish veneers and fewer voids inside.
Not what we're talking about but would certainly work for your project.
Just make sure you cherry pick and get ones that haven't warped.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 7:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
>> On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
>>>>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
>>>>> stiffening (or center support).
>>>>
>>>> Agree.  I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.  Particle board
>>>> or MDF, not sure.  Shelves are 3/4".  30" width.  The ones with heavy
>>>> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.  1/4" bow probably.
>>>> Noticeable.  Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle
>>>> board or MDF shelves.  But strong enough to avoid bowing?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"
>>> plywood shelves.
>>> It does two things.
>>> It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
>>> It also looks better in most cases.  I've never liked the look of 3/4"
>>> thick shelves.  They look cheap.  They look WalMart or Ikea.
>>> Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just *make* it
>>> more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
>>> It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.
>>> Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of
>> course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look to be
>> rather thin so perhaps he wants that look.
>
> No, you're looking way too deep into the picture I posted, but I posted
> it, so I'll take the blame. ;-)
>
> Look no further than 2 matching units, each with a 2 door base cabinet that
> is a few inches deeper than the book case. One on each side of a window.
>
>> I built in 16 feet of
>> floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have rather
>> stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a _very_
>> heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag even with
>> a full load of heavy books.
>
> Each unit will be ~34" in total width, so ~32" shelves. 3/4" would be too
> wimpy both in form and function, so there will definitely be some edging
> used. Not 2-1/4" though. :-)
>

IMO, you could get away with a uniform (same thickness as plywood) edge
band, front and back. Or a 1-1/4"-ish front edge band, rabbeted, like
this...

http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg

I have done dozens like this and it's extremely strong.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 8:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 7:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
>>> On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
>>>>>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
>>>>>> stiffening (or center support).
>>>>>
>>>>> Agree.  I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.  Particle board
>>>>> or MDF, not sure.  Shelves are 3/4".  30" width.  The ones with heavy
>>>>> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.  1/4" bow probably.
>>>>> Noticeable.  Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle
>>>>> board or MDF shelves.  But strong enough to avoid bowing?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"
>>>> plywood shelves.
>>>> It does two things.
>>>> It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
>>>> It also looks better in most cases.  I've never liked the look of 3/4"
>>>> thick shelves.  They look cheap.  They look WalMart or Ikea.
>>>> Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just
>>>> *make* it
>>>> more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
>>>> It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.
>>>> Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of
>>> course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look
>>> to be
>>> rather thin so perhaps he wants that look.
>>
>> No, you're looking way too deep into the picture I posted, but I posted
>> it, so I'll take the blame. ;-)
>>
>> Look no further than 2 matching units, each with a 2 door base cabinet
>> that
>> is a few inches deeper than the book case. One on each side of a window.
>>
>>> I built in 16 feet of
>>> floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have
>>> rather
>>> stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a _very_
>>> heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag even
>>> with
>>> a full load of heavy books.
>>
>> Each unit will be ~34" in total width, so ~32" shelves. 3/4" would be too
>> wimpy both in form and function, so there will definitely be some edging
>> used. Not 2-1/4" though. :-)
>>
>
> IMO, you could get away with a uniform (same thickness as plywood) edge
> band, front and back.  Or a 1-1/4"-ish front edge band, rabbeted, like
> this...
>
> http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg
>
> I have done dozens like this and it's extremely strong.
>

Oh, and by the way... I went through all the fancy techniques of solid
edge banding to a shelf. V-groove, tongue and groove, spline, etc.,
etc., etc.

This was by far the simplest and just as strong as the rest.

You can clamp two shelves at one time, like this....
http://mikedrums.com/shelfclamps.jpg
In fact, I got to the point where I made the banding wider, with a
rabbet on both sides, glued a shelf to each side, then ran the whole
thing through the table saw, cutting through the center of the band, to
split it into the two shelves.

You leave the banding proud of the shelf top, then trim it flush with a
pattern bit. Lickety split.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/17 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 9:51:58 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/9/17 8:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 11/9/17 7:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 8:10:39 PM UTC-5, John McGaw wrote:
>>>>> On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
>>>>>>>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
>>>>>>>> stiffening (or center support).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agree.  I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.  Particle board
>>>>>>> or MDF, not sure.  Shelves are 3/4".  30" width.  The ones with heavy
>>>>>>> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.  1/4" bow probably.
>>>>>>> Noticeable.  Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle
>>>>>>> board or MDF shelves.  But strong enough to avoid bowing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"
>>>>>> plywood shelves.
>>>>>> It does two things.
>>>>>> It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
>>>>>> It also looks better in most cases.  I've never liked the look of 3/4"
>>>>>> thick shelves.  They look cheap.  They look WalMart or Ikea.
>>>>>> Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just
>>>>>> *make* it
>>>>>> more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
>>>>>> It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.
>>>>>> Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of
>>>>> course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look
>>>>> to be
>>>>> rather thin so perhaps he wants that look.
>>>>
>>>> No, you're looking way too deep into the picture I posted, but I posted
>>>> it, so I'll take the blame. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Look no further than 2 matching units, each with a 2 door base cabinet
>>>> that
>>>> is a few inches deeper than the book case. One on each side of a window.
>>>>
>>>>> I built in 16 feet of
>>>>> floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have
>>>>> rather
>>>>> stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a _very_
>>>>> heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag even
>>>>> with
>>>>> a full load of heavy books.
>>>>
>>>> Each unit will be ~34" in total width, so ~32" shelves. 3/4" would be too
>>>> wimpy both in form and function, so there will definitely be some edging
>>>> used. Not 2-1/4" though. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> IMO, you could get away with a uniform (same thickness as plywood) edge
>>> band, front and back.  Or a 1-1/4"-ish front edge band, rabbeted, like
>>> this...
>>>
>>> http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg
>>>
>>> I have done dozens like this and it's extremely strong.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, and by the way... I went through all the fancy techniques of solid
>> edge banding to a shelf. V-groove, tongue and groove, spline, etc.,
>> etc., etc.
>>
>> This was by far the simplest and just as strong as the rest.
>>
>> You can clamp two shelves at one time, like this....
>> http://mikedrums.com/shelfclamps.jpg
>> In fact, I got to the point where I made the banding wider, with a
>> rabbet on both sides, glued a shelf to each side, then ran the whole
>> thing through the table saw, cutting through the center of the band, to
>> split it into the two shelves.
>>
>> You leave the banding proud of the shelf top, then trim it flush with a
>> pattern bit. Lickety split.
>>
>>
>
> Oh, to have the space that you have. Any *one* of your double glue ups
> would take up most of my shop. ;-)
>

That was my old shop. Present one is about 2x the size. The Sharn out
back is 3x the size when needed.
You want space? The present SUCKS award goes to Steve down in TX. His
new shop leaves us all envious!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/9/2017 4:35 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 11/9/17 3:04 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw wrote:
>>>
>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you are
>>> actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some form of
>>> stiffening (or center support).
>>
>> Agree.  I have some white plastic coated bookshelves.  Particle board
>> or MDF, not sure.  Shelves are 3/4".  30" width.  The ones with heavy
>> books in the middle do have noticeable bow.  1/4" bow probably.
>> Noticeable.  Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle
>> board or MDF shelves.  But strong enough to avoid bowing?
>>
>
> It's very common practice to put hardwood edging on the front of 3/4"
> plywood shelves.
> It does two things.
> It obviously keeps the shelves from sagging.
> It also looks better in most cases.  I've never liked the look of 3/4"
> thick shelves.  They look cheap.  They look WalMart or Ikea.
> Adding a thicker hardwood front edge to a 3/4" shelf doesn't just *make*
> it more sturdy, it makes it "look" more sturdy.
> It also has the advantage of matching the thickness of the face-frame.
> Again, all subjective but that's my opinion on it.
>
>
Case in point:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/9146396185/in/album-72157640288372444/

I'm a weekend hobbyist at best, but while my stuff may sometimes lack
finesse, it's never underbuilt. This set of bookcases (only half is
shown) was built in 2013 from 3/4 Birch Ply and maple 1x2 (and 1x3 at
the top and bottom). There's also a 1/2" ply back, screwed into each
shelf. The shelves are dadoed into the uprights.

It was immediately filled - completely - with books. There's been no sag
whatsoever. I think a little caulk might even make it seaworthy. :)

On 11/9/17 6:10 PM, John McGaw wrote:

> Yes, it certainly is common and it is common sense in most cases. Of
> course, if you look at the picture the OP provided, the shelves look to
> be rather thin so perhaps he wants that look. I built in 16 feet of
> floor-to-ceiling bookshelves across my downstairs room and they have
> rather stout 2-1/4" edging to stiffen them up but that does give them a
> _very_ heavy look. At a 34" span in each bay there is no detectable sag
> even with a full load of heavy books.


You can gibe the illusion of a thin shelf by tapering the hardwood strip
on the shelf front. For example, with a 3/4" shelf, make the hardwood
strip 1" deep, make the front edge 5/8" or 1/2" and taper to 3/4"
leaving a 1/4" section where the strip meets the shelf plywood.

-BR

On 11/10/17 1:55 AM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 1:04:36 PM UTC-8,
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw
>> wrote:
>
>> ... white plastic coated bookshelves. Particle board or MDF, not
>> sure. Shelves are 3/4". 30" width. The ones with heavy books in
>> the middle do have noticeable bow. 1/4" bow probably. Noticeable.
>> Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle board or
>> MDF shelves.
>
> Sag strength of plywood is half that of solid wood (half the grain is
> running the wrong way!), and MDF usually doesn't hold a load for long
> times (even if it's stiff enough, it's not STABLE).
>
> Inexpensive whitewood, or knotty SPF, makes good shelves, and you can
> always glue on a decorative edge. At 30", it'll hold anything
> booklike without sagging. Just try to get a non-cupped plank for the
> job.
>

That is my experience as well.
Our Lowes & HD both carry this pre-primed, laminated and finger-jointed
stuff from Brazil that is super cheap and super stable. It comes in a
bunch of different widths. It's perfect for painted shelves.

Inexpensive, no cups, straight as an arrow, strong & stable, ready for
finish coat.
Can't go wrong, especially considering the time it saves.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/10/17 12:48 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:05:22 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> I haven't had any luck with HD's other ply products, even the "Sande"
> stuff. Even my HD rep couldn't tell me what the face ply is on that
> product. We think that it is some kind of softer maple, but then
> another batch comes in and it looks more like birch. His inquiry to
> their supplier is that "it depends" on the batch. Regardless of what
> it actually is, I have had a lot of problems with chipping, and the
> veneer peeling. It is hard to transport to the job as the edges are
> very fragile. I will buy my "Chiliply" before I get that stuff. I
> have even had the veneer raise in a vein about 4" long and the width
> of a pencil when finishing with one of my ammonia laden latex
> enamels.
>
> Robert
>

That's probably one big reason for the price difference (back to the
OP's OQ).
I haven't seen ANY plywood that doesn't have that super-thin finish
veneer, but at leas the stuff you pay $72 for has a finish veneer that's
the thickness of a business card instead of a sheet of paper. I've also
seen delamination in the middle of a sheet which was only discovered
after ripping.

I guess one has to weigh the cost of having to return a sheet and start
over to paying the extra up front.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/10/17 1:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/9/17 5:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGaw
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like
>>>>>> these:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood,
>>>>>> something I've never used before. A local lumber yard
>>>>>> quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home Depot has (what they
>>>>>> call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What
>>>>>> does the extra $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4"
>>>>>> for the shelves and top of base?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the
>>>>> price difference. And or if it is stain quality or simply
>>>>> paint quality.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but
>>>>> IMHO not enough savings to offset the extra effort of dealing
>>>>> with different thicknesses of wood and plywood.
>>>>
>>>> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and
>>>> check out MDO plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer
>>>> and paints beautifully. 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill
>>>> since the forces are cross-surface but it certainly can't hurt.
>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you
>>>> are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some
>>>> form of stiffening (or center support).
>>>
>>> It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to
>>> hide the core, add some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening.
>>> Form and function. There will be a face frame too. ;-)
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>
>> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
>> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load. In my
>> opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
>>
>> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
>>
>>
>
> Nice. How deep are your shelves? The actual shelves, not including
> the face frame. Are you happy with what you choose as a depth?
>
> I know that it all depends on what the shelves will be used for, and
> I have dimension in mind for my project, but I'm just curious as to
> what depth you chose, why you chose it and how it's worked out after
> all these years.
>

There are actually in a friend/client's home, not mine.
But IIRC, they were nominal depths of 12" and 16".
8-12" is considered "book" depth and 16" is a "cabinet" depth for
scrapbooks and things like that. That's the theoretical application for
those sizes. However, there are practical reasons beyond what size
things will be on them.

Consider a sheet of plywood at 48" x 96". Those are both perfect
multiples of 12 and 16.
This means you can get the most out of an entire sheet of plywood with
no waste. What about the saw kerf, you ask? That's why I call it
"nominal" sizing.

Using these rough sizes allows you to quickly tear down your sheet good
to rough sizes (even using a circular saw and straightedge). Then you
can add your hardwood edge banding, then rip to finished size. You
probably can see in the pic, but I'm pretty sure I put edge bands on
both sides of the shelves. I stood on some and had no deflection. The
center shelves are fixed to add stability/strength to the cases.

The clients recently moved out of the home and were disappointed to
leave them there.
They told me they still looked and performed like new.
BTW, I made every piece of trim and door "from scratch."


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/10/17 2:47 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, November 10, 2017 at 3:18:22 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 11/10/17 1:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 6:20:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 11/9/17 5:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 3:17:52 PM UTC-5, John McGaw
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/8/2017 11:25 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/8/2017 5:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm planning on building a pair of bookcase/hutches like
>>>>>>>> these:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://imgur.com/a/eCVZT
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They will be painted, so I'm considering 3/4 birch plywood,
>>>>>>>> something I've never used before. A local lumber yard
>>>>>>>> quoted me ~$75 per 4 x 8 sheet. Home Depot has (what they
>>>>>>>> call) Birch Plywood for ~$50.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know that HD lumber typically sucks but I'm curious: What
>>>>>>>> does the extra $25 get me at the lumber yard?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> P.S. Would 5/8" be good enough for the carcass with 3/4"
>>>>>>>> for the shelves and top of base?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most likely the quality if the inner ply's is going to be the
>>>>>>> price difference. And or if it is stain quality or simply
>>>>>>> paint quality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would not advise using 5/8", probably strong enough but
>>>>>>> IMHO not enough savings to offset the extra effort of dealing
>>>>>>> with different thicknesses of wood and plywood.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are going to be painting it, do yourself a favor and
>>>>>> check out MDO plywood. The surface is far smoother than veneer
>>>>>> and paints beautifully. 3/4" for the carcase may be overkill
>>>>>> since the forces are cross-surface but it certainly can't hurt.
>>>>>> For the shelves 3/4" alone probably won't be sufficient if you
>>>>>> are actually going to put books on the shelves so plan on some
>>>>>> form of stiffening (or center support).
>>>>>
>>>>> It was always my plan to put a hardwood edge on the shelves to
>>>>> hide the core, add some visual bulk, and to provide stiffening.
>>>>> Form and function. There will be a face frame too. ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> These are 4ft shelves and they were loaded down with books and
>>>> scrapbooks, etc., and have had no sag after years under load. In my
>>>> opinion, they would look really bad if I left them at 3/4" thick.
>>>>
>>>> http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nice. How deep are your shelves? The actual shelves, not including
>>> the face frame. Are you happy with what you choose as a depth?
>>>
>>> I know that it all depends on what the shelves will be used for, and
>>> I have dimension in mind for my project, but I'm just curious as to
>>> what depth you chose, why you chose it and how it's worked out after
>>> all these years.
>>>
>>
>> There are actually in a friend/client's home, not mine.
>> But IIRC, they were nominal depths of 12" and 16".
>> 8-12" is considered "book" depth and 16" is a "cabinet" depth for
>> scrapbooks and things like that. That's the theoretical application for
>> those sizes. However, there are practical reasons beyond what size
>> things will be on them.
>>
>> Consider a sheet of plywood at 48" x 96". Those are both perfect
>> multiples of 12 and 16.
>> This means you can get the most out of an entire sheet of plywood with
>> no waste. What about the saw kerf, you ask? That's why I call it
>> "nominal" sizing.
>>
>> Using these rough sizes allows you to quickly tear down your sheet good
>> to rough sizes (even using a circular saw and straightedge). Then you
>> can add your hardwood edge banding, then rip to finished size. You
>> probably can see in the pic, but I'm pretty sure I put edge bands on
>> both sides of the shelves. I stood on some and had no deflection. The
>> center shelves are fixed to add stability/strength to the cases.
>>
>> The clients recently moved out of the home and were disappointed to
>> leave them there.
>> They told me they still looked and performed like new.
>> BTW, I made every piece of trim and door "from scratch."
>>
>
> Thanks. My plan is for 12" shelves which should work for all of SWMBO's
> cookbooks and cooking magazines. 16" should work for the base cabinets.
>
> The main issue is that SWMBO and I don't visualize things the same way.
> She can't picture those dimensions in her head even when I stand there
> with a tape measure and show her what 12" and 16" is. You would not want
> her as a client. ;-) On the other hand, if you are longing for a great
> meal, she's the one to call.
>
> I've decided that I am going to get some poster board from the dollar store
> and build a full scale mock-up of one unit so she can alter the dimensions
> before I put blade to wood. It'll protect me and keep me sane.
>

If you have a craft store nearby check out what they call gatorboard or
gatorfoam.
It's not cheap, but perfect for mockups.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 11/19/17 12:11 AM, OFWW wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 10:59:51 -0600, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/10/17 1:55 AM, whit3rd wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 1:04:36 PM UTC-8,
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, November 9, 2017 at 2:17:52 PM UTC-6, John McGaw
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... white plastic coated bookshelves. Particle board or MDF, not
>>>> sure. Shelves are 3/4". 30" width. The ones with heavy books in
>>>> the middle do have noticeable bow. 1/4" bow probably. Noticeable.
>>>> Plywood would likely be stronger than my cheap particle board or
>>>> MDF shelves.
>>>
>>> Sag strength of plywood is half that of solid wood (half the grain is
>>> running the wrong way!), and MDF usually doesn't hold a load for long
>>> times (even if it's stiff enough, it's not STABLE).
>>>
>>> Inexpensive whitewood, or knotty SPF, makes good shelves, and you can
>>> always glue on a decorative edge. At 30", it'll hold anything
>>> booklike without sagging. Just try to get a non-cupped plank for the
>>> job.
>>>
>>
>> That is my experience as well.
>> Our Lowes & HD both carry this pre-primed, laminated and finger-jointed
>> stuff from Brazil that is super cheap and super stable. It comes in a
>> bunch of different widths. It's perfect for painted shelves.
>>
>> Inexpensive, no cups, straight as an arrow, strong & stable, ready for
>> finish coat.
>> Can't go wrong, especially considering the time it saves.
>
> I've seen some of those finger joints loose where they were stacked.
> Already coming apart. I don't think I'd use those of books even if
> surrounded by dado's with a nice hardwood edge in the front.
>
> Just my 1/2 cent worth.
>

Are we talking about the same thing?
I'm talking about these...
goo.gl/kVZJJv

The finger-joints of each individual board (1x3-ish) are staggered, then
all edge glued together.
Even if you did run across one that was loose, it's going to be held
together by the adjacent boards on each side.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Thu, 9 Nov 2017 14:10:40 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>On 11/9/2017 1:34 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Why do you snip our posts to such an extent that there absolutely no context left?
>>
>
>
>This question, which will never be answered to your satisfaction, is
>annoying to the rest of us. ;~(

Best just ignore Iggy, do not quote respond to him. A kind of a PISS
on him (yeah it is an acronym).

replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
You'll have to visually inspect them both. Rumor has it that the Lumber Yard
still gets the furniture-grade plywood with a decent veneer thickness, I
haven't found this to be true at 2 of the Lumber Yards around me. HD's
however, is too thin to ever be refinish sanded.
>
Otherwise, 5/8's is definitely plenty and even too much for the carcass. 3/4
is at best only okay for the shelves, real wood planking would be a vast
improvement. But, if you choose the 3/4, then you should angle iron or
c-channel the front and back edges to avoid the inevitable future sag.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/woodworking/birch-plywood-for-painted-book-case-50-vs-75-811973-.htm