Sharpening System Tradeoffs

I have this hobby(passion) and for the past 25 years I have sought out a
quick and yet sharp and durable edge on a hand plane(# 9 1/2). I have a
shelf of the "Tried and Failed". Including even some motor driven units. And
out of the years it comes to this. The material I am planing is bamboo -
which has a high amount of silica(sand) in it. The plant absorbs it as it
grows - blown in on the wind - as I suspect other woods and such do. The
silica leaves small notches in the edge of the blade. So the system I
use(need) is this. Using a Veritas blade holder I first "grind" the notches
away with a 300 grit diamond - I then us a 1000 - 6000 grit waterstone for
final sharpening. The end result is a system that takes about 10 minutes to
sharpen a blade and a blade that is sharp enough to shave away the hair on
my wrist. Now if you can imagine having sharpened away 2 Hock blades in that
period of time so be it. The insights are still this - diamonds stones clog
and eventually wear out. Dish soap and a toothbrush refresh the diamonds as
best possible. And . . .Water stones dish out quickly so it is always best
to have 2. That way a flat surface can be regained by wearing the 2 dished
stones against each other. The guy I really feel sorry for is the one caught
up in "The Zen of Sharpening" - I have seen others in my field that can
spend hours sharpening - Along with the different levels of stones and
gadgets are the chants that are required learning. These are the folks that
get really discouraged when the realistics like myself take a blade and in
15 - 30 minutes of planing are back at the sharpening station.

Wayne


"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What are the tradeoffs between the following sharpening systems?
> Japanese waterstones, scary sharp, DMT Diamond stones, Shapton Stones,
> Lee Valley (LV) Veritas MkII, or Tormek?
>
>
> Here's my take: (I've only used Japanese waterstones and the scary
> sharp method.)
>
> The Japanese waterstones aren't cheap but the last a while. A 4000
> grit from LV is about $21 for the regular size and $38 for a large.
> Soaking them in water is a nuisance. Keeping them in the house ('cause
> they'll freeze in the garage is a hassle, too. They always seems to be
> in SWMBO's way.). I estimate start up cost to be: $100 -- Lee Valley
> sells a "professional" kit for $108 -- a deal! This should last a
> while but not sure how long it last with respect to the other methods.
>
>
> I tend slightly prefer the scary sharp method over the Japanese
> waterstones, although it's hard to get more than 2000 grit paper. Plus
> the paper is more expensive than I thought -- one chisel might use a
> sheet of 400. A sheet of 1200 and 2000 only last a few sharpenings.
> Boxes of 50 sheets of the 2000 grit paper are $40. Boxes of 1200, 600,
> 400 -- only a little cheaper. They also come in packes of 6 sheets or
> 15 sheets. A friend of mine claims you only need to grits. I've been
> using 4: 400, 600, 1200, 2000. I hear you can also get 2500 but the
> store I buy from considers that a special order. It's also a hassle to
> go to yet another store to buy the 3M 77 adhesive: a can of it is
> another $13.
> I can store all this stuff in the garage and there's no water to worry
> abour.
> Start up cost
> plate glass ............... $10
> Assortment of sandpaper ... $50
> Totoal .................... $60
>
>
>
> The DMT Diamond stones are "endorsed" by Lie-Nielson:
> http://www.dmtsharp.com/ or
> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/diamondsharpening.html -- looks like $120
> per stone and you'd need 3. Ouch. Probably need more stuff too --
> don't know.
> Start up cost > $360.
>
>
> The Spapton stones aren't cheap either (http://www.shaptonstones.com/)
> -- the 1000 grit is about $53, the 8000 is $102. They claim they are
> much faster and last a lot longer. You also need their lapping plate
> which is about $150. Ouch, again. Steve Knight "endorses" this
> technique, right Steve? See http://www.knight-toolworks.com/extras.htm
> near bottom of page.
> Start up cost (3 stones and the compact lapping plate) -- approx $400.
>
> The MkII seems very convenient. It is certainly cost competive with
> the DMT Diamond stones and the Shapton stones. You can also apply the
> scary sharp technique by making your own platters.
> Start up cost for unit plus two extra platters ... $320
>
> The Tormek seems to be a favorite for folks that sharpen more than
> chisels and hand plane blease, like turning chisels, etc. It's pricey.
> Start up cost ... $400
>
> Note: LV also carries ceramic stones (not Shapton -- I don't think),
> diamond stones (not DMT -- I don't think), aluminum oxide stones. I
> don't know how they compare but they are cheaper. LV also carries a
> belt sander. I don't know much about that technique either. Any
> comments, Robin?
>
> My conclusion: stick with the basic scary sharp method. Sharpen a
> little more often and run to the automotive paint store for more
> sandpaper every once in a while. Take the money that I would have
> spent on the more expensive methods and buy a new hand plane. Am I
> wrong?

In the application I am working on the burr is removed - so stropping is of
little gain. The bamboo is so hard that it would "flip" the burr in just a
pass or two. And yes - Fly Rods

Wayne
Author "Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods"

"Rick Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Wayne Cattanach wrote:
>
> > I have this hobby(passion) and for the past 25 years I have sought
out a
> > quick and yet sharp and durable edge on a hand plane(# 9 1/2). I have a
> > shelf of the "Tried and Failed". Including even some motor driven units.
And
> > out of the years it comes to this. The material I am planing is bamboo -
> > which has a high amount of silica(sand) in it. The plant absorbs it as
it
> > grows - blown in on the wind - as I suspect other woods and such do. The
> > silica leaves small notches in the edge of the blade. So the system I
> > use(need) is this. Using a Veritas blade holder I first "grind" the
notches
> > away with a 300 grit diamond - I then us a 1000 - 6000 grit waterstone
for
> > final sharpening. The end result is a system that takes about 10 minutes
to
> > sharpen a blade and a blade that is sharp enough to shave away the hair
on
> > my wrist. Now if you can imagine having sharpened away 2 Hock blades in
that
> > period of time so be it. The insights are still this - diamonds stones
clog
> > and eventually wear out.
>
> I don't know if you're aware of this, but diamond stones cut just as well
as
> last a lot longer when used with minimal pressure against the tool.
>
> You're also quite correct. Bamboo is an interesting material to work.
> Btw: What are you making that you're using planes on bamboo? Fly rods?
>
> --RC
>
>

Bare leather has been used for many, many years due to its fine abrasive
qualities. Adding an abrasive to it is not necessary. If you do that, you
might as well just use a stone. There is a place for abrasive on leather but
not for plane blades and then should be fallowed up with bare leather to
achieve the best possible edge.

"Rick Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> CW wrote:
>
> > Or, better yet, save the abrasive compound for your buffing wheel and
use
> > the strop without it.
>
> Perhaps 'strop' isn't the right word. But fine abrasive compound on
leather
> keeps a keen edge on tools.
>
> --RC
>
>

Correction: Seems the stones are closed to $100, not $120. Might be
Lie-Nielsen's markup, don't know -- LN web pages says $120. Amazon
says something around $100.

>
> The DMT Diamond stones are "endorsed" by Lie-Nielson:
> http://www.dmtsharp.com/ or
> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/diamondsharpening.html -- looks like $120
> per stone and you'd need 3. Ouch. Probably need more stuff too --
> don't know.
> Start up cost > $360.
>
[snip]

The one problem with scary sharp that I don't think has been mentioned
in this thread (my aoplogies if I missed it) is that sometimes I
accidentally gouge the paper and if you don't keep the glass clean you
get little bumps which can't help....

Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
[snip]
> I used some stencil adhesive when trying out the scary sharp method,
> and it worked pretty well- not to mention it was a whole lot cheaper
> and easier to clean up.
>
[snip]

Never Enough Money wrote:

> What are the tradeoffs between the following sharpening systems?
> Japanese waterstones, scary sharp, DMT Diamond stones, Shapton Stones,
> Lee Valley (LV) Veritas MkII, or Tormek?
>
> Here's my take: (I've only used Japanese waterstones and the scary
> sharp method.)
>
> The Japanese waterstones aren't cheap but the last a while. A 4000
> grit from LV is about $21 for the regular size and $38 for a large.
> Soaking them in water is a nuisance. Keeping them in the house ('cause
> they'll freeze in the garage is a hassle, too. They always seems to be
> in SWMBO's way.). I estimate start up cost to be: $100 -- Lee Valley
> sells a "professional" kit for $108 -- a deal! This should last a
> while but not sure how long it last with respect to the other methods.
>
> I tend slightly prefer the scary sharp method over the Japanese
> waterstones, although it's hard to get more than 2000 grit paper. Plus
> the paper is more expensive than I thought -- one chisel might use a
> sheet of 400. A sheet of 1200 and 2000 only last a few sharpenings.
> Boxes of 50 sheets of the 2000 grit paper are $40. Boxes of 1200, 600,
> 400 -- only a little cheaper. They also come in packes of 6 sheets or
> 15 sheets. A friend of mine claims you only need to grits. I've been
> using 4: 400, 600, 1200, 2000. I hear you can also get 2500 but the
> store I buy from considers that a special order. It's also a hassle to
> go to yet another store to buy the 3M 77 adhesive: a can of it is
> another $13.
> I can store all this stuff in the garage and there's no water to worry
> abour.
> Start up cost
> plate glass ............... $10
> Assortment of sandpaper ... $50
> Totoal .................... $60
>
> The DMT Diamond stones are "endorsed" by Lie-Nielson:
> http://www.dmtsharp.com/ or
> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/diamondsharpening.html -- looks like $120
> per stone and you'd need 3. Ouch. Probably need more stuff too --
> don't know.
> Start up cost > $360.
>
> The Spapton stones aren't cheap either (http://www.shaptonstones.com/)
> -- the 1000 grit is about $53, the 8000 is $102. They claim they are
> much faster and last a lot longer. You also need their lapping plate
> which is about $150. Ouch, again. Steve Knight "endorses" this
> technique, right Steve? See http://www.knight-toolworks.com/extras.htm
> near bottom of page.
> Start up cost (3 stones and the compact lapping plate) -- approx $400.
>
> The MkII seems very convenient. It is certainly cost competive with
> the DMT Diamond stones and the Shapton stones. You can also apply the
> scary sharp technique by making your own platters.
> Start up cost for unit plus two extra platters ... $320
>
> The Tormek seems to be a favorite for folks that sharpen more than
> chisels and hand plane blease, like turning chisels, etc. It's pricey.
> Start up cost ... $400
>
> Note: LV also carries ceramic stones (not Shapton -- I don't think),
> diamond stones (not DMT -- I don't think), aluminum oxide stones. I
> don't know how they compare but they are cheaper. LV also carries a
> belt sander. I don't know much about that technique either. Any
> comments, Robin?
>
> My conclusion: stick with the basic scary sharp method. Sharpen a
> little more often and run to the automotive paint store for more
> sandpaper every once in a while. Take the money that I would have
> spent on the more expensive methods and buy a new hand plane. Am I
> wrong?

Having more sharpening methods and gadgets than are known to mortal man,
I'm inclined to agree with your conclusion about Scary Sharp.

Of course it depends on what you're sharpening and for what use. I prefer
a coarse diamond stone for leveling, coarse oil stones for rough shaping
of badly nicked up blades, a manual sharpening system for general purpose
knives and kitchen knives and a variety of slips and ceramic stones for
carving tools. But for general woodworking tools its hard to beat plate
glass and abrasive paper.

I don't like power sharpeners because IMHO the cheap ones aren't worth
having and I can't afford something like a Tokmek. Same for grinders, and
its too easy to overheat the edge besides.

One piece of advice on using sandpaper: Spring for the best wet-or-dry
paper you can get and look around for a source of high-quality stuff. Auto
supply stores are a good place to start, but you can usually get it
cheaper if you go to a mail-order specialist.

If the finish from a 2000 grit paper isn't fine enough for you, then
finish off on a leather strop with a very fine grade of abrasive powder
such as aluminum oxide.

Also, when considering finishes, remember that waterstone grades don't
match conventional grades. a 1000 grit water stone is a lot coarser than
1000 grit sandpaper.

--RC

Wayne Cattanach wrote:

> I have this hobby(passion) and for the past 25 years I have sought out a
> quick and yet sharp and durable edge on a hand plane(# 9 1/2). I have a
> shelf of the "Tried and Failed". Including even some motor driven units. And
> out of the years it comes to this. The material I am planing is bamboo -
> which has a high amount of silica(sand) in it. The plant absorbs it as it
> grows - blown in on the wind - as I suspect other woods and such do. The
> silica leaves small notches in the edge of the blade. So the system I
> use(need) is this. Using a Veritas blade holder I first "grind" the notches
> away with a 300 grit diamond - I then us a 1000 - 6000 grit waterstone for
> final sharpening. The end result is a system that takes about 10 minutes to
> sharpen a blade and a blade that is sharp enough to shave away the hair on
> my wrist. Now if you can imagine having sharpened away 2 Hock blades in that
> period of time so be it. The insights are still this - diamonds stones clog
> and eventually wear out.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but diamond stones cut just as well as
last a lot longer when used with minimal pressure against the tool.

You're also quite correct. Bamboo is an interesting material to work.
Btw: What are you making that you're using planes on bamboo? Fly rods?

--RC

AAvK wrote:

> I have picked-up on that too, sharpening fanatacism with some people. You have a
> good common sense about it that I need to excersize. The most effective sharpening
> in a short time so I can get back to work.
>
> Alex

The best system is to strop constantly while you work. Makes the edge last a whole lot
longer and makes the work go easier as well.

Or as a guy I know puts it: "I'm a tool sharpener who does a little carving on the
side."

--RC

AAvK wrote:

> > professional sharpeners will ever use diamonds to grind and sharpen high carbon
> > steel. the diamonds just wear too fast. I have found this out myself. I sure
> > wish they lasted longer as they work great when new.
>
> What about these diamond stones, top of the page:
> http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/sharpeningstones/sharpeningstones.php
> Those look pretty amazing. Compressed block of diamond dust, too
> expensive to try them but I wonder how they would wear over time.
>
> Alex

If they're made properly they will wear extremely well. Think a lapidary saw blade.
Those things last a long time if you take proper care of them. The reason is that the
good ones have a thick layer of embedded diamond. As diamond wears away, new diamond
is exposed. Most of the sharpening stones and such have only a thin layer of diamond.

Diamond abrasive tools are funny in that the diamond particles wear relatively little.
They tend to stay sharp even after a lot of use. What wears out a diamond abrasive,
usually, is that the diamonds come off as the matrix wears or as pressure pulls them
out. Among other things that means its especially important to use diamond abrasive
with liquid for cooling and lubrication and to use light pressure.

This is extremely obvious in lapidary work with diamond saws, wheels, belts, etc.

--RC

CW wrote:

> Or, better yet, save the abrasive compound for your buffing wheel and use
> the strop without it.

Perhaps 'strop' isn't the right word. But fine abrasive compound on leather
keeps a keen edge on tools.

--RC

[email protected] wrote:

> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:02:19 -0400, "Wayne Cattanach"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In the application I am working on the burr is removed - so stropping is of
> >little gain. The bamboo is so hard that it would "flip" the burr in just a
> >pass or two. And yes - Fly Rods
> >
> >Wayne
> >Author "Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods"
>
> Stropping isn't about removing a burr. it's a cushioned
> burnishing/abrasive process that if done right quickly yields an edge
> sharp enough to shave with that lasts longer than the edge produced
> with uncushioned abrasives alone.

It is also easy to renew on chisels and similar tools. Which means you can keep
the edge sharper longer. Planes, now. . .

And Wayne, as a certified (or certifiable) bambusita, I've got to ask. What kind
(species of bamboo) do you use to make your rods?

--RC

> The one problem with scary sharp that I don't think has been mentioned
> in this thread (my aoplogies if I missed it) is that sometimes I
> accidentally gouge the paper and if you don't keep the glass clean you
> get little bumps which can't help....


Exactly right. I use paint thinner and paper towels, thoroughly gets rid if the super 77 adhesive.
Alex

Or, better yet, save the abrasive compound for your buffing wheel and use
the strop without it.

"Rick Cook" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

> If the finish from a 2000 grit paper isn't fine enough for you, then
> finish off on a leather strop with a very fine grade of abrasive powder
> such as aluminum oxide.

> professional sharpeners will ever use diamonds to grind and sharpen high carbon
> steel. the diamonds just wear too fast. I have found this out myself. I sure
> wish they lasted longer as they work great when new.


What about these diamond stones, top of the page:
http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/sharpeningstones/sharpeningstones.php
Those look pretty amazing. Compressed block of diamond dust, too
expensive to try them but I wonder how they would wear over time.

Alex

I did the sharpy sharp method for awhile. I even bought a nice black
granite reference plate for it as un upgrade to the float glass I had. That
definitely made a difference and my results were fine. The problem was it
still took me quite awhile to do and I would sometimes get variations in my
results (due to my own fault, admittedly).

So, I went ahead and bought the Veritas MKII PSS and couldn't be happier. I
mean, this has made sharpening my chisels and plane irons SO easy that I
actually do it and often (as needed). I get exactly repeatable results and
it is extremely fast. I can take a flea market plane iron and flatten the
back and hone the bevel in a total of about 10 minutes, maybe 15. For
touching up the edge, it takes literally a couple minutes and that's only if
you change platters.

You definitely will want a second system for turning tools or carving tools.
I'm considering the Tormek just for that, as well as thickness planer blade
and jointer blade sharpening ease. At present I use a grinder and the
Wolverine jig, which probably is what I'll keep for some time to come.

So, if I were you I'd get the MKII - it really is a brilliant approach to
sharpening bevel-edged tools.

Mike

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:51:33 -0500, Australopithecus scobis
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 22:16:11 -0700, AAvK wrote:
>
>> I have picked-up on that too, sharpening fanatacism with some people.
>> You have a good common sense about it that I need to excersize. The most
>> effective sharpening in a short time so I can get back to work.
>
>There was a post, to which the quote might be a reply, mentioning those
>who "get into the Zen of sharpening," and then spend too much time at it.
>This morning an image popped into my head: The Master carefully arranges
>his stones and blade. He meditates. Then, he takes one stroke on the
>finest stone. The blade shaves wispy curlies off purpleheart... ;)

"A good cook changes his chopper once a year, -- because he cuts. An
ordinary cook, one a month, -- because he hacks. But I have had this
chopper nineteen years, and although I have cut up many thousand
bullocks, its edge is as if fresh from the whetstone. For at the
joints there are always interstices, and the edge of a chopper being
without thickness, it remains only to insert that which is without
thickness into such an interstice. Indeed there is plenty of room for
the blade to move about. It is thus that I have kept my chopper for
nineteen years as though fresh from the whetstone.

"Nevertheless, when I come upon a knotty part which is difficult to
tackle, I am all caution. Fixing my eye on it, I stay my hand, and
gently apply my blade, until with a hwah the part yields like earth
crumbling to the ground. Then I take out my chopper and stand up, and
look around, and pause with an air of triumph. Then wiping my chopper,
I put it carefully away."

-- Chuang Tzu

I have picked-up on that too, sharpening fanatacism with some people. You have a
good common sense about it that I need to excersize. The most effective sharpening
in a short time so I can get back to work.

Alex

> What are the tradeoffs between the following sharpening systems?
> Japanese waterstones, scary sharp, DMT Diamond stones, Shapton Stones,
> Lee Valley (LV) Veritas MkII, or Tormek?

What's fun about watching this discussion is that I work down the hall
from "Never Enough Money", and we have the same discussions by the
coffee machine. I *think* his goal is to get to spending more time
making shavings than analyses.

I have evolved to the following system. Not necessarily the cheapest,
but I've assembled the pieces incrementally over the years, so I
didn't notice the cost so much.

* Scary sharp for inital flattening and polishing of the blade backs.
I've got a big honkin' piece of glass which can hold 5 1/2 sheets end
to end. Start w/ SiCr and move up to the PSA Lee Valley sub micron
stuff.

* Slow speed fine (and ocassionaly coarse) grinder wheel to shape a
rough hollow grind. Wish I'd gotten the 8" instead of the 6" (same
story for jointer).

* 1200 and 8000 stone for the micro bevel. Used to use the Lee Valley
angle jig all the time. Still do sometimes, but mostly I do it by
hand. Two handed grip facing the stone, elbows locked against waist,
one foot in front of the other, rock your body back and forth "from
the feet". This keeps the angle pretty constant.

* I keep the stones handy on a rubber mat on a side cabinet so I can
turn to them and sharpen frequently.

* A2 blades that don't need to be sharpened as often.

* A coase DMT to flatten the water stones.

* A Lee Valley 1" belt sander for kitchen knives and curved edge tools

I have a friend who swears by the LV MkII system. The irony - power
sharpening so he can spend more time using hand tools.

>Diamond abrasive tools are funny in that the diamond particles wear relatively little.
>They tend to stay sharp even after a lot of use. What wears out a diamond abrasive,
>usually, is that the diamonds come off as the matrix wears or as pressure pulls them
>out. Among other things that means its especially important to use diamond abrasive
>with liquid for cooling and lubrication and to use light pressure.

this does not work when working diamonds and steel. the tips of the diamonds
wear or break off. so the whole surface cuts slower. this causes the diamonds
not to wear and not to expose the fresh ones. I was playing with diamond laps
and sharpening and even the expensive ones made to wear and expose new stones
never worked any longer on steel. though they did keep working on flattening
the makita stone.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

myself power sharpeners are best used for basic shaping refining and fixing an
edge. for speed and cost in my opinion. I use a makita to flatten the backs and
get the bevel ready for hand sharpening. then I use the shapton stones. this
method saves a lot of time getting the backs and bevels flat but is fast and
cost effective to finish a edge.
nothing wrong with scary sharp but the cost after long term. shapton's are
spendy at first but they last so long that in the long run they are dirt cheap.
myself I think DMT stones will never give a great edge with them alone and
they wear fast.
professional sharpeners will ever use diamonds to grind and sharpen high carbon
steel. the diamonds just wear too fast. I have found this out myself. I sure
wish they lasted longer as they work great when new.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

>What about these diamond stones, top of the page:
>http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/sharpeningstones/sharpeningstones.php
>Those look pretty amazing. Compressed block of diamond dust, too
>expensive to try them but I wonder how they would wear over time.

I don't remember if I asked harrolson about them. but they are way to spendy for
me.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:34:36 -0700, AAvK wrote:

> I am making my own wheel strop for the drill press. The disc is 7 1/2"
> wide x 2 1/4" thick. Three wood discs glues together, the two lower ones
> are 3/4" basic ply and the top disc is 3/4" MDF laminated with very thin
> white linoleum, it's very flat. The leather will be on top of the disc
> using super 77, and I bought LV's green honing compound bar. I had the
> arbor threaded and the chuck-end cut to 1/2" from a 5/8" cold roll rod
> by a local machinist, and bought grade 5 nuts and two different OD sizes
> of 5/8" washers. It should spin nice and heavy, and slower if I can flip
> the front pulley.


I'm trying to picture this. The two ply layers are ballast? The working
side is on top? Could you also splice a band of leather around the
circumference, to handle some different stropping chores? If you flipped
the leather side down, could you bring it down on a plane blade's back
(clamped to the DP table)? That would be nice, indeed.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 15:31:50 -0700, Never Enough Money wrote:

> My conclusion: stick with the basic scary sharp method. Sharpen a little
> more often and run to the automotive paint store for more sandpaper
> every once in a while. Take the money that I would have spent on the
> more expensive methods and buy a new hand plane. Am I wrong?

I got the LV set of 800 and 4000 stones then later added a 10k stone. I
still use SS. There's a learning curve with the waterstones; I still
get a shinier back with SiC w/d paper. Stones cut faster than paper,
according to various sources. It's nice to have the SS plate handy for
touch-ups, then go to the waterstones at the end of the day.

Ace has plastic shoeboxes for a couple of dollars. Such can hold two
stones in water, always ready to go. Small, compact, and easily stored.

The Eclipse-style guide puts ditches in stones, and also trenches paper.
The General is, according to Lee's Sharpening book, tough to set
precise angles. Plan your layout well, and you can keep the roller on your
backing plate instead of the paper. Gives you shorter strokes, of course,
but saves both the paper's flatness and the roller's roundness. (Yes, my
eclipse roller has grown some flat spots.) (I got mine at Menard's for
$7-- 8^D )

Use fluid with your paper. I made some homemade stuff based on clues found
on the net: some washing soda, some detergent, and water. WD-40 works
nicely on paper, too. Anyway, the fluid will help the paper last longer. I
use a crepe eraser, the art kind, not the Rockler kind, to scrub the
paper. Move the eraser from fine to coarse! (The water based fluid plays
well with the eraser.)

You have nice large plates. Get more grits. Smaller steps, I've read, make
each step go faster, hence less wear on the paper. I get sheets
onesy-twosy on sale, and they last a long time. Norton 3x sheets are very
nice. They last much longer for about the same price as regular sheets.

I have a couple of pocket ceramic stones; one I've had for 20 years, the
other is new. I discovered that neither is flat. Apparently they need to
be freshened on a diamond stone now and then. (Local Woodcraft has some
DMT hones on display so one can try one's pocketknife on them. I'm
planning to run those ceramic stones over them a couple of passes...)
Anyway, the ceramic put the final shine on my SS blades for low cost.
(That was before I got the 10k stone... Saved for a while for that one...)

Frugal is good, IMHO. Pamper your sandpaper and get the plane.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 22:16:11 -0700, AAvK wrote:

> I have picked-up on that too, sharpening fanatacism with some people.
> You have a good common sense about it that I need to excersize. The most
> effective sharpening in a short time so I can get back to work.

There was a post, to which the quote might be a reply, mentioning those
who "get into the Zen of sharpening," and then spend too much time at it.
This morning an image popped into my head: The Master carefully arranges
his stones and blade. He meditates. Then, he takes one stroke on the
finest stone. The blade shaves wispy curlies off purpleheart... ;)


--
"Keep your ass behind you"

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 05:24:50 +0000, Rick Cook wrote:

> The best system is to strop constantly while you work. Makes the edge
> last a whole lot longer and makes the work go easier as well.

I run the strop-on-a-block backward across the mounted plane blade. It
does seem to give the blade a few more shavings before the wood gets hard
again. With chisels, yeah, strop early, strop often.

--
"Keep your ass behind you"

Interesting compilation NEM, and I think you are not* wrong (per your last sentence).

But, here's my scenerio:

I went with SS because I am friggen "poor" and can do nothing about it. I was able to
find a slab of flat marble 10x22x3/4" and a slab of glass 18x18x3/4", both for $25
at a local junk shop/yard. Honing guide, Eclipse copy for $12 at a Rockler store, all
kinds of local abrasive papers and I am set. Besides I love the area you get compared
to stones, and a honing guide takes up too much space on stones. There that older
General brand guide that is always on eBay, it's wheel base can stay off of stones. I
now have my Stubai set honed to 1200, I love it. I my town super 77 is everywhere in
stock and have two old cans from the past that I dug up.

As far as machines there is also the Sears ones. One is like the original Makita of
fame, spinning flat and uses water:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00921171000&subcat=Bench+Grinders
It seems like a good deal but they do not mention replacement wheels. who else makes
7" wheels in different grits and the right sized arbor hole???

They also have this super cheap alternative to Tormek's upright wheel and no mention
of water use or replacement wheels and other grits:
http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00921170000&subcat=Bench+Grinders

I am making my own wheel strop for the drill press. The disc is 7 1/2" wide x 2 1/4"
thick. Three wood discs glues together, the two lower ones are 3/4" basic ply and the
top disc is 3/4" MDF laminated with very thin white linoleum, it's very flat. The leather
will be on top of the disc using super 77, and I bought LV's green honing compound
bar. I had the arbor threaded and the chuck-end cut to 1/2" from a 5/8" cold roll rod by
a local machinist, and bought grade 5 nuts and two different OD sizes of 5/8" washers.
It should spin nice and heavy, and slower if I can flip the front pulley.

Because when there's 'never enough money'... there's this specific creek we need to
learn to cope with... I am MUCH worse off than you!

Alex

On 7 Oct 2004 15:31:50 -0700, [email protected] (Never Enough
Money) wrote:

>What are the tradeoffs between the following sharpening systems?
>Japanese waterstones, scary sharp, DMT Diamond stones, Shapton Stones,
>Lee Valley (LV) Veritas MkII, or Tormek?
>
>
>Here's my take: (I've only used Japanese waterstones and the scary
>sharp method.)
>
>The Japanese waterstones aren't cheap but the last a while. A 4000
>grit from LV is about $21 for the regular size and $38 for a large.
>Soaking them in water is a nuisance. Keeping them in the house ('cause
>they'll freeze in the garage is a hassle, too. They always seems to be
>in SWMBO's way.). I estimate start up cost to be: $100 -- Lee Valley
>sells a "professional" kit for $108 -- a deal! This should last a
>while but not sure how long it last with respect to the other methods.
>
>
>I tend slightly prefer the scary sharp method over the Japanese
>waterstones, although it's hard to get more than 2000 grit paper. Plus
>the paper is more expensive than I thought -- one chisel might use a
>sheet of 400. A sheet of 1200 and 2000 only last a few sharpenings.
>Boxes of 50 sheets of the 2000 grit paper are $40. Boxes of 1200, 600,
>400 -- only a little cheaper. They also come in packes of 6 sheets or
>15 sheets. A friend of mine claims you only need to grits. I've been
>using 4: 400, 600, 1200, 2000. I hear you can also get 2500 but the
>store I buy from considers that a special order. It's also a hassle to
>go to yet another store to buy the 3M 77 adhesive: a can of it is
>another $13.

I used some stencil adhesive when trying out the scary sharp method,
and it worked pretty well- not to mention it was a whole lot cheaper
and easier to clean up.

>I can store all this stuff in the garage and there's no water to worry
>abour.
>Start up cost
>plate glass ............... $10
>Assortment of sandpaper ... $50
>Totoal .................... $60
>
>
>
>The DMT Diamond stones are "endorsed" by Lie-Nielson:
>http://www.dmtsharp.com/ or
>http://www.lie-nielsen.com/diamondsharpening.html -- looks like $120
>per stone and you'd need 3. Ouch. Probably need more stuff too --
>don't know.
>Start up cost > $360.
>
>
>The Spapton stones aren't cheap either (http://www.shaptonstones.com/)
>-- the 1000 grit is about $53, the 8000 is $102. They claim they are
>much faster and last a lot longer. You also need their lapping plate
>which is about $150. Ouch, again. Steve Knight "endorses" this
>technique, right Steve? See http://www.knight-toolworks.com/extras.htm
>near bottom of page.
>Start up cost (3 stones and the compact lapping plate) -- approx $400.
>
>The MkII seems very convenient. It is certainly cost competive with
>the DMT Diamond stones and the Shapton stones. You can also apply the
>scary sharp technique by making your own platters.
>Start up cost for unit plus two extra platters ... $320
>
>The Tormek seems to be a favorite for folks that sharpen more than
>chisels and hand plane blease, like turning chisels, etc. It's pricey.
>Start up cost ... $400
>
>Note: LV also carries ceramic stones (not Shapton -- I don't think),
>diamond stones (not DMT -- I don't think), aluminum oxide stones. I
>don't know how they compare but they are cheaper. LV also carries a
>belt sander. I don't know much about that technique either. Any
>comments, Robin?

Belt sander is too rough, IMO- I've tried it, and it works nicely for
creating the inital profile, but after that I've always had to touch
them up on a stone.

I've also seen people use friable grinding wheels to get a concave
profile, and that works really nice, though I haven't seen one for
sale around me yet.

You forgot the Japan Woodworker- www.japanwoodworker.com They've got a
good selection of stones as well (not to mention those awesome hand
saws and chisels hand-forged by samurai sword makers, *drool*) Looks
like they're quite a bit less expensive than the others, but that may
be a difference in the size of the stones, and not a discounted price.
Lots of planes in there, too.

>My conclusion: stick with the basic scary sharp method. Sharpen a
>little more often and run to the automotive paint store for more
>sandpaper every once in a while. Take the money that I would have
>spent on the more expensive methods and buy a new hand plane. Am I
>wrong?

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 09:02:19 -0400, "Wayne Cattanach"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In the application I am working on the burr is removed - so stropping is of
>little gain. The bamboo is so hard that it would "flip" the burr in just a
>pass or two. And yes - Fly Rods
>
>Wayne
>Author "Handcrafting Bamboo Fly Rods"

Stropping isn't about removing a burr. it's a cushioned
burnishing/abrasive process that if done right quickly yields an edge
sharp enough to shave with that lasts longer than the edge produced
with uncushioned abrasives alone.

This is a great analysis. However, you left off the grinder (slow speed 8",
hand crank, belt sander, etc.). And of course, once you have the grinder,
then you need a tool rest. That adds to the cost of all the "by hand"
methods.

I did basically the same analysis and decided to go with the Veritas Mk II
and I'm really happy with it. You don't need to buy extra platters. The
system comes with 2 platters and you can use both sides of each platter.
Also, one of the grits they say to just use for flattening blades, which I
don't seem to be able to do effective on the Mk II, so you can put 0.5
micron paper in it's place and good edge. Given that setup, I get
excellent, repeatable results.

Two other things to consider in Mk II price comparison. You don't have to
buy a grinder and tool rest. Also, even though Mk II uses abrasives like
SS, they last a REALLY long time. I bought an extra set of abrasives when I
bought mine at the beginning of the year and I still haven't worn out the
first set. For a hobbyist, they last a long time even compared to 3M
microabrasives. I think there are three reasons for that:
1. Repeating the same grind is very easy, so you are removing very little
metal each time.
2. The coarsest grit is really aggressive, so you don't spend much time
messing around on finer grits.
3. There isn't a roller of the blade guide also grinding away at the
abrasive.
4. The micro bevel means that at the last stage, you are removing very,
very little metal.
5. Centrifugal force tends to keep the abrasive clean.

I would especially recommend Mk II for a beginner trying to get into hand
tools. I spent so much time doing the back and forth on sandpaper as I
learned to sharpen. It becomes frustrating and I was inclined to use dull
tools or tools ground to the wrong bevel. Mk II is really, really fast, so
I'm much more likely to stop and sharpen a tool or grind it to the correct
angle.

Mark

"Never Enough Money" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What are the tradeoffs between the following sharpening systems?
> Japanese waterstones, scary sharp, DMT Diamond stones, Shapton Stones,
> Lee Valley (LV) Veritas MkII, or Tormek?
>
>
> Here's my take: (I've only used Japanese waterstones and the scary
> sharp method.)
>
> The Japanese waterstones aren't cheap but the last a while. A 4000
> grit from LV is about $21 for the regular size and $38 for a large.
> Soaking them in water is a nuisance. Keeping them in the house ('cause
> they'll freeze in the garage is a hassle, too. They always seems to be
> in SWMBO's way.). I estimate start up cost to be: $100 -- Lee Valley
> sells a "professional" kit for $108 -- a deal! This should last a
> while but not sure how long it last with respect to the other methods.
>
>
> I tend slightly prefer the scary sharp method over the Japanese
> waterstones, although it's hard to get more than 2000 grit paper. Plus
> the paper is more expensive than I thought -- one chisel might use a
> sheet of 400. A sheet of 1200 and 2000 only last a few sharpenings.
> Boxes of 50 sheets of the 2000 grit paper are $40. Boxes of 1200, 600,
> 400 -- only a little cheaper. They also come in packes of 6 sheets or
> 15 sheets. A friend of mine claims you only need to grits. I've been
> using 4: 400, 600, 1200, 2000. I hear you can also get 2500 but the
> store I buy from considers that a special order. It's also a hassle to
> go to yet another store to buy the 3M 77 adhesive: a can of it is
> another $13.
> I can store all this stuff in the garage and there's no water to worry
> abour.
> Start up cost
> plate glass ............... $10
> Assortment of sandpaper ... $50
> Totoal .................... $60
>
>
>
> The DMT Diamond stones are "endorsed" by Lie-Nielson:
> http://www.dmtsharp.com/ or
> http://www.lie-nielsen.com/diamondsharpening.html -- looks like $120
> per stone and you'd need 3. Ouch. Probably need more stuff too --
> don't know.
> Start up cost > $360.
>
>
> The Spapton stones aren't cheap either (http://www.shaptonstones.com/)
> -- the 1000 grit is about $53, the 8000 is $102. They claim they are
> much faster and last a lot longer. You also need their lapping plate
> which is about $150. Ouch, again. Steve Knight "endorses" this
> technique, right Steve? See http://www.knight-toolworks.com/extras.htm
> near bottom of page.
> Start up cost (3 stones and the compact lapping plate) -- approx $400.
>
> The MkII seems very convenient. It is certainly cost competive with
> the DMT Diamond stones and the Shapton stones. You can also apply the
> scary sharp technique by making your own platters.
> Start up cost for unit plus two extra platters ... $320
>
> The Tormek seems to be a favorite for folks that sharpen more than
> chisels and hand plane blease, like turning chisels, etc. It's pricey.
> Start up cost ... $400
>
> Note: LV also carries ceramic stones (not Shapton -- I don't think),
> diamond stones (not DMT -- I don't think), aluminum oxide stones. I
> don't know how they compare but they are cheaper. LV also carries a
> belt sander. I don't know much about that technique either. Any
> comments, Robin?
>
> My conclusion: stick with the basic scary sharp method. Sharpen a
> little more often and run to the automotive paint store for more
> sandpaper every once in a while. Take the money that I would have
> spent on the more expensive methods and buy a new hand plane. Am I
> wrong?

> I'm trying to picture this. The two ply layers are ballast? The working
> side is on top? Could you also splice a band of leather around the
> circumference, to handle some different stropping chores? If you flipped
> the leather side down, could you bring it down on a plane blade's back
> (clamped to the DP table)? That would be nice, indeed.


You have some good ideas. All sides can be used indeed! A thick and hard leather for the
top for fine honing. A soft leather will create an "out-round" on the bevel which is
undesireable.

Leather on the side, let's say two leathers on the side! A split, rough facing and a smooth
facing, one above the other, or not. And some split, tough horse butt on the... ahem... bottom.
The wheel can be flipped over on the arbor. You thought of that for lapping plane blade
backs but I wouldn't clamp the whole disc/wheel to the DP table, because pushing the blade's
cutting edge on the leather would not be good for it. My disc will only spin in the chuck so
that the leather surface is spinning "away" from the blade's cutting edge. Needs to be a slow
spin.

My ass is behind me -and only me! I Swear!

Alex