Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers
or plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
I had some walks poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for
plain so they put in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type.
The contractor said that was all that was available that day. They
stayed fuzzy for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off
the leaves and pine straw.
--
GW Ross
If it's not your banana, don't eat it.
On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 2:49:17 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
=20
> IIRC cement is the binder in concrete. Typically concrete has a stone=20
> aggregate and sand mixed in.
Once again, you are right.
As a cub superintendent pouring tilt panels, I learned the difference when =
the job structural engineer made it a point to embarrass (humiliate?) me in=
front of the old hands in the concrete crew.
There is no such thing as cement sidewalks, driveways, parking lots, founda=
tions, or anything else. Cement is a material of some type that is used to=
adhere objects to one another.
As you said, concrete is a manufactured product that is used in the above m=
entioned examples, that uses cement (usually a variant of Portland process)=
as a binder for the other ingredients.
I used to pour a lot of concrete, but that was years ago. I had no idea th=
at the glass reinforced stuff was being used for driveways and such. Can a=
nyone point me to a link?
I was looking around and all I have found is the glass reinforced concrete =
being used as it was years ago for cast columns, pediments, window treatmen=
ts, faux stone ornamentation, counter tops, etc.
Any direction would be appreciated. For some dumb reason I have always bee=
n fascinated with concrete.
BTW Mr. Ross, if you pour regular concrete, ask your contractor what the co=
st would be to go from 2500psi poured at a 5" slump to 3000psi. It shouldn=
't be much, but it is a lot stronger. Also, find out what your city code m=
inimum is for steel reinforcement and add a little to it. Our code minimum=
here for driveways is 3/8" rebar on 24" centers with 1/2" bar treatments o=
n the perimeters. I usually go to 3/8" bar on 16" centers and it is much s=
tronger with a tiny increase in price over the project. It usually only ad=
ds about 6-8 pieces of steel on our regular sized double wide driveways, th=
at's it.
Looking forward to some info on the glass stuff; if anyone can post a link =
I would appreciate it!
Robert
On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 3:34:17 PM UTC-5, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 15:07:39 -0500, "G. Ross" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>=20
> >Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers=20
> >or plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
> >I had some walks poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for=20
> >plain so they put in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type.=20
> >The contractor said that was all that was available that day. They=20
> >stayed fuzzy for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off=20
> >the leaves and pine straw.
> Up here in frost country, fibercrete with steel re-enforcement,
> topped with "grout" which seals the concrete and keeps the water and
> salt out.
I think it will also have to do with the thickness of the slab, the area be=
tween joints and the compression strength of the concrete, assuming of cour=
se that the subgrade has been properly compacted/prepared. IMO, they are no=
t necessarily redundant. Proper cure will significantly increase the durabi=
lity/lifespan of the concrete.
On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 15:07:39 -0500, "G. Ross" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers
>or plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
>I had some walks poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for
>plain so they put in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type.
>The contractor said that was all that was available that day. They
>stayed fuzzy for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off
>the leaves and pine straw.
Up here in frost country, fibercrete with steel re-enforcement,
topped with "grout" which seals the concrete and keeps the water and
salt out.
On 2/12/2016 2:16 PM, Bill wrote:
> G. Ross wrote:
>> Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers
>> or plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
> I don't know the answer, but you question reminds me of the difference
> between concrete and cement. I wonder if you mean, "cement with glass
> fibers"? Sorry, I don't know anymore about it.
IIRC cement is the binder in concrete. Typically concrete has a stone
aggregate and sand mixed in.
On 2/12/2016 2:07 PM, G. Ross wrote:
> Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers or
> plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
> I had some walks poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for plain
> so they put in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type. The
> contractor said that was all that was available that day. They stayed
> fuzzy for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off the leaves
> and pine straw.
I believe either is going to be greatly dependent on the surface
preparation before the pour.
I would probably go with the wire reinforced. At least that is how the
driveways are done around here after the builder driveway fails. But
soil conditions and ground prep will probably make a lot of difference
in how long either holds up.
On 2/12/2016 3:07 PM, G. Ross wrote:
> Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers or
> plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
> I had some walks poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for plain
> so they put in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type. The
> contractor said that was all that was available that day. They stayed
> fuzzy for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off the leaves
> and pine straw.
For a driveway concrete with wire reinforcment.
--
Jeff
On 2/13/2016 10:07 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> Fiber and wire mesh both serve the same function, to minimize cracking and
> to hold the concrete together when it does crack. Neither offers any real
> structural advantage. The problem with wire mesh is that it's usually not
> centered in the slab very well. They normally lay it on the ground and pull
> it up as the concrete is being poured, thus reducing it's effectiveness.
> The glass fibers, on the other hand, get mixed into the concrete and are
> evenly distributed. So you end up with lots of little fibers holding
> everything together.
>
> I used the fibers in my garage slab. The finishers didn't like it because
> it made it difficult to get a nice steel troweled finish. But, I thought it
> turned it very nice. My slab is about 5 inches thick, 24'x28' with NO
> control joints. 15 years later I only have one tiny hairline crack in one
> of the doorways. It's about 3 feet long, but you can't feel it with your
> hand. That said, my garage is mostly used as a wood shop, and only rarely
> sees the weight of our cars.
>
> To add structural strength, you would need to add rebar reinforcement.
> Concrete is very strong in compression, but weak in tension (such as
> bending over a void under the slab). Rebar helps with that and/or you can
> make the slab thicker. Of course, it would be wise to start with a good
> compacted gravel base before you pour the concrete.
>
> There's no reason you couldn't combine glass fibers to reduce cracking and
> rebar to add structural strength.
As one who causes a lot of concrete to be poured, the OP should view
this as a good, informative post.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
> Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers
> or plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
> I had some walks poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for
> plain so they put in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type.
> The contractor said that was all that was available that day. They
> stayed fuzzy for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off
> the leaves and pine straw.
Fiber and wire mesh both serve the same function, to minimize cracking and
to hold the concrete together when it does crack. Neither offers any real
structural advantage. The problem with wire mesh is that it's usually not
centered in the slab very well. They normally lay it on the ground and pull
it up as the concrete is being poured, thus reducing it's effectiveness.
The glass fibers, on the other hand, get mixed into the concrete and are
evenly distributed. So you end up with lots of little fibers holding
everything together.
I used the fibers in my garage slab. The finishers didn't like it because
it made it difficult to get a nice steel troweled finish. But, I thought it
turned it very nice. My slab is about 5 inches thick, 24'x28' with NO
control joints. 15 years later I only have one tiny hairline crack in one
of the doorways. It's about 3 feet long, but you can't feel it with your
hand. That said, my garage is mostly used as a wood shop, and only rarely
sees the weight of our cars.
To add structural strength, you would need to add rebar reinforcement.
Concrete is very strong in compression, but weak in tension (such as
bending over a void under the slab). Rebar helps with that and/or you can
make the slab thicker. Of course, it would be wise to start with a good
compacted gravel base before you pour the concrete.
There's no reason you couldn't combine glass fibers to reduce cracking and
rebar to add structural strength.
Good luck,
Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com
G. Ross wrote:
> Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass fibers
> or plain concrete with wire reinforcement?
I don't know the answer, but you question reminds me of the difference
between concrete and cement. I wonder if you mean, "cement with glass
fibers"? Sorry, I don't know anymore about it.
> I had some walks poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for
> plain so they put in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type. The
> contractor said that was all that was available that day. They stayed
> fuzzy for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off the
> leaves and pine straw.
On 2/13/16 10:07 AM, HerHusband wrote:
>> Which holds up better for a driveway--concrete with the glass
>> fibers or plain concrete with wire reinforcement? I had some walks
>> poured a few years ago and got both. I asked for plain so they put
>> in the reinforcement then poured the fiber type. The contractor
>> said that was all that was available that day. They stayed fuzzy
>> for a couple of years, making it difficult to blow off the leaves
>> and pine straw.
>
> Fiber and wire mesh both serve the same function, to minimize
> cracking and to hold the concrete together when it does crack.
> Neither offers any real structural advantage. The problem with wire
> mesh is that it's usually not centered in the slab very well. They
> normally lay it on the ground and pull it up as the concrete is being
> poured, thus reducing it's effectiveness. The glass fibers, on the
> other hand, get mixed into the concrete and are evenly distributed.
> So you end up with lots of little fibers holding everything
> together.
>
> I used the fibers in my garage slab. The finishers didn't like it
> because it made it difficult to get a nice steel troweled finish.
> But, I thought it turned it very nice. My slab is about 5 inches
> thick, 24'x28' with NO control joints. 15 years later I only have one
> tiny hairline crack in one of the doorways. It's about 3 feet long,
> but you can't feel it with your hand. That said, my garage is mostly
> used as a wood shop, and only rarely sees the weight of our cars.
>
That was my experience in the home I built 20 years ago.
I was very impressed with the fiber-crete.
> To add structural strength, you would need to add rebar
> reinforcement. Concrete is very strong in compression, but weak in
> tension (such as bending over a void under the slab). Rebar helps
> with that and/or you can make the slab thicker. Of course, it would
> be wise to start with a good compacted gravel base before you pour
> the concrete.
>
Ahh, there's the rub, huh? A concrete parking slab is only is strong as
the base on which it's laid... and it was never intended to be. A
concrete pad is a concrete pad. A concrete bridge is another animal
entirely. That's where the rebar comes in, as you described.
Way too many concrete pads are poured onto way too soft of ground. In
my opinion, the base should be strong enough, alone, to bear whatever
load is intended to be on the concrete.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On Fri, 12 Feb 2016 22:44:26 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 2:49:17 PM UTC-6, Leon wrote:
>
>> IIRC cement is the binder in concrete. Typically concrete has a stone
>> aggregate and sand mixed in.
>
>Once again, you are right.
>
>As a cub superintendent pouring tilt panels, I learned the difference when the job structural engineer made it a point to embarrass (humiliate?) me in front of the old hands in the concrete crew.
>
>There is no such thing as cement sidewalks, driveways, parking lots, foundations, or anything else. Cement is a material of some type that is used to adhere objects to one another.
>
>As you said, concrete is a manufactured product that is used in the above mentioned examples, that uses cement (usually a variant of Portland process) as a binder for the other ingredients.
>
>I used to pour a lot of concrete, but that was years ago. I had no idea that the glass reinforced stuff was being used for driveways and such. Can anyone point me to a link?
>
>I was looking around and all I have found is the glass reinforced concrete being used as it was years ago for cast columns, pediments, window treatments, faux stone ornamentation, counter tops, etc.
>
>Any direction would be appreciated. For some dumb reason I have always been fascinated with concrete.
>
>BTW Mr. Ross, if you pour regular concrete, ask your contractor what the cost would be to go from 2500psi poured at a 5" slump to 3000psi. It shouldn't be much, but it is a lot stronger. Also, find out what your city code minimum is for steel reinforcement and add a little to it. Our code minimum here for driveways is 3/8" rebar on 24" centers with 1/2" bar treatments on the perimeters. I usually go to 3/8" bar on 16" centers and it is much stronger with a tiny increase in price over the project. It usually only adds about 6-8 pieces of steel on our regular sized double wide driveways, that's it.
>
>Looking forward to some info on the glass stuff; if anyone can post a link I would appreciate it!
>
>Robert
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber-reinforced_concrete
http://www.stoneycreekreadymix.ca/concrete_products.html
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