I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.
So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
wealth of info now not available.
Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
Bill
On Apr 20, 3:45=A0pm, "Phil Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I replied earlier about Ken Vaughn's site, lamenting the loss of Ken's
> knowledge. =A0Well, I just did a search and found his site at this URL, w=
hich
> I believe is newer:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/index.html=A0Looks like, at least Ken,=
is
> still around!
>
> "Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:874fe215-17fd-4183-bcb0-e5626be5e229@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 9, 3:50 am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
Great news!!!! Thanks Phil
Bill
Ken Vaughn's site is STILL ACTIVE
this works for me
http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/
Visited him about 18 months ago.
A talented and sharing woodworker.
thanks again Ken
Ted
Phil Anderson wrote:
> I've been wondering about Ken. He, like me, hasn't posted here for quite
> awhile. I wonder if his site is just down or something more permanent has
> happened...
>
> "Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
>> people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
>>
>> A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.
>>
>> So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
>> wealth of info now not available.
>>
>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>
>> Bill
>
>
Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote in news:hpm4j5$hup$1
@speranza.aioe.org:
> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>
>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>
> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>
If you can find the author or webmaster's e-mail address, you can ask
before downloading the site. If you can find it... Most webmasters have
removed their e-mail addresses due to the amount of spam, and don't check
the webmaster@ e-mail address (again, due to spam.)
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
Morris wrote:
> I also lock my car, but locks only keep the honest folks out.
-----------------------------------------
"LDosser" wrote:
> And make it more difficult for the dishonest folks.
--------------------------------------------
Had two brother-in-laws who were insurance agents and also
sold a lot of auto insurance.
Would listen to them tell tales of auto theft that were amazing.
Both agreed that if a car thief walked up to your locked car and took
more than two(2) minutes to break in, start up and drive away,
they were still learning the profession.
As Morris said, locks keep honest people honest.
Lew
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:4bc01c76$0$14770
[email protected]:
> Had two brother-in-laws who were insurance agents and also
> sold a lot of auto insurance.
>
> Would listen to them tell tales of auto theft that were amazing.
>
> Both agreed that if a car thief walked up to your locked car and took
> more than two(2) minutes to break in, start up and drive away,
> they were still learning the profession.
>
> As Morris said, locks keep honest people honest.
>
> Lew
>
They also keep the less determined people out. If a thief is looking for
an easy target, locking the door may convince them to go to the next one.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
"Puckdropper" wrote:
> They also keep the less determined people out. If a thief is
> looking for
> an easy target, locking the door may convince them to go to the next
> one.
------------------------------------
Might work in the boonies, but in a major population center, such as
here in SoCal, they steal to order which usually translates into a
thief who specializes in stealing only certain vehicles.
If they have an order for your vehicle, it's toast.
They could care less about a door lock.
The thief can probably open your car, start it and drive away in less
time than you can open the door and get key in the lock.
Now if he is using a tow truck, that's another story.
Lew
On Apr 9, 3:50=A0am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
> > people's workshops. =A0Many, many dead links.
>
> Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.
>
> Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
> restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> email : Username is amgron
> ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
Jeff: So glad to have what you so freely share and I highly value
accessable. Many thanks.
Yo Group:
I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
not neither necessary nor expected.
As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
others.
I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
endevour as much.
So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
"here and now".
Bill
"LDosser" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 11:49 PM, LDosser wrote:
>>> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>>>
>>>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>>>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>>>
>>>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>>>
>>> If you don't want it copied, then copyright it. If you don't want it
>>> copied for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.
>>
>> If your neighbors have that same opinion, you probably shouldn't park on
>> a public street.
>
> I lock my car. You?
>
Lock it?
I don't even take the keys out.
When I get a new/different vehicle, I take the key off the ring
stick it in switch and that is where it stays, afterall someone might want
to use it.
I do unkey and lock my company vehicle if I'm away from home,
it's not mine and I don't need the grief of letting it get "borrowed".
basilisk
On 4/9/2010 8:43 AM, basilisk wrote:
> I don't even take the keys out.
> When I get a new/different vehicle, I take the key off the ring
> stick it in switch and that is where it stays, afterall someone might want
> to use it.
Ahhh, the benefits of boondock living ... :)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
least I don't recall
> giving them permission, or you permission, to copy anything I write in the
> Rec.
This is such a public forum, you know you are being archieved. If you want
privacey you can communicaate via email.
I agree with others, a lot of people make websites a collections of
techniques they want to teach to others. I have seen permission to copy,
rarely a "do not copy" but largly it is not addressed. But knowing what I do
of some of these people, they wouldn't mind at all. I think they would view
it as "still teaching", so long as proper credit is given. And it isn't
being done for commercial gain. Yes, I think that is a factor too.
John
On Apr 11, 11:32=A0am, "The Visitor" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> This is such a public forum, you know you are being archieved. If you wan=
t
> privacey you can communicaate via email.
>
You have a rude awakening coming if you think email is private.
On Apr 9, 3:50=A0am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
> > people's workshops. =A0Many, many dead links.
>
> Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.
>
> Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
> restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> email : Username is amgron
> ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
Jeff,
What is your opinion of Morris Dovey's sentiments?
If we were to archive pages from your site on our personal systems,
would you consider it "stealing" or "preserving"?
I've been wondering about Ken. He, like me, hasn't posted here for quite
awhile. I wonder if his site is just down or something more permanent has
happened...
"Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
> people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
>
> A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.
>
> So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
> wealth of info now not available.
>
> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>
> Bill
On Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:13:17 -0700, the infamous "Lew Hodgett"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>"Puckdropper" wrote:
>
>> They also keep the less determined people out. If a thief is
>> looking for
>> an easy target, locking the door may convince them to go to the next
>> one.
>------------------------------------
>Might work in the boonies, but in a major population center, such as
>here in SoCal, they steal to order which usually translates into a
>thief who specializes in stealing only certain vehicles.
>
>If they have an order for your vehicle, it's toast.
>
>They could care less about a door lock.
>
>The thief can probably open your car, start it and drive away in less
>time than you can open the door and get key in the lock.
>
>Now if he is using a tow truck, that's another story.
Yeah. With the new towtrucks, you back up to the vehicle, press one
single button, and the truck does the rest. You're on your way 18
seconds later. Amazing!
--LJ, who hurt his back attempting to assemble a towing dolly at
extension.
--
Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. Nature's peace
will flow into you as sunshine flows into trees. The winds will
blow their own freshness into you, and the storms their energy,
while cares will drop away from you like the leaves of Autumn.
-- John Muir
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>
>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>
> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
publisher would probably would have liked.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>
>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>
>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>
> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
> publisher would probably would have liked.
And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
It's theft, and it honors no one.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>
>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>
>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>
> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>
> It's theft, and it honors no one.
Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of like
planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/8/2010 11:21 PM, Bill wrote:
> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>
>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>
>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>
>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>
>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>
>
> Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
> site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
> site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of like
> planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
> theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
> mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?
It's fairly common practice for Youtubers to encourage others to copy
and repost their videos in order to prevent their permanent removal.
But Youtubers don't expect to profit by sales of their work.
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>
>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>
>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>
>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>
> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>
> It's theft, and it honors no one.
If you don't want it copied, then copyright it. If you don't want it copied
for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.
On 4/8/2010 10:21 PM, Bill wrote:
> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>
>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>
>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>
>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>
>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>
> Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
> site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
> site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of like
> planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
> theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
> mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?
I understand the desire to preserve that which one values...
...and I maintain that taking someone else's property without their
permission and without an exchange of value for value, is theft.
Under international law, the right to make copies of authored (drawn,
sculpted, photographed, composed, recorded,...) materials is the
property of the creator from the very instant of creation.
Opinions on an author's motivation have no relevance, and calling theft
"preservation" doesn't change its nature.
In my experience, fewer than one in a thousand of those who "value" work
sufficiently to want to "preserve" it, value it enough even to say
"Thank you for showing it to me."
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/8/2010 11:49 PM, LDosser wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>
>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>
>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>
>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>
>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>
> If you don't want it copied, then copyright it. If you don't want it
> copied for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.
If your neighbors have that same opinion, you probably shouldn't park on
a public street.
Under international law, the copyright exists from the instant of
creation - and it exists without regard to location of its object.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/8/2010 10:21 PM, Bill wrote:
>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>>
>>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>>
>>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>>
>>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>>
>> Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
>> site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
>> site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of
>> like
>> planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
>> theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
>> mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?
>
> I understand the desire to preserve that which one values...
>
> ...and I maintain that taking someone else's property without their
> permission and without an exchange of value for value, is theft.
>
> Under international law, the right to make copies of authored (drawn,
> sculpted, photographed, composed, recorded,...) materials is the property
> of the creator from the very instant of creation.
>
> Opinions on an author's motivation have no relevance, and calling theft
> "preservation" doesn't change its nature.
>
> In my experience, fewer than one in a thousand of those who "value" work
> sufficiently to want to "preserve" it, value it enough even to say "Thank
> you for showing it to me."
I wasn't talking about those high-volume sexy sites. ; )
As an example, don't you think that the content of all of the "What is it?"
threads should be formally archived? Most of the folks at the sites
that I go to are pretty respectful folks.
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/9/2010 12:37 AM, Bill wrote:
> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 10:21 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>>>
>>>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>>>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>>>
>>>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>>>
>>> Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
>>> site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
>>> site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of
>>> like
>>> planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
>>> theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
>>> mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?
>>
>> I understand the desire to preserve that which one values...
>>
>> ...and I maintain that taking someone else's property without their
>> permission and without an exchange of value for value, is theft.
>>
>> Under international law, the right to make copies of authored (drawn,
>> sculpted, photographed, composed, recorded,...) materials is the property
>> of the creator from the very instant of creation.
>>
>> Opinions on an author's motivation have no relevance, and calling theft
>> "preservation" doesn't change its nature.
>>
>> In my experience, fewer than one in a thousand of those who "value" work
>> sufficiently to want to "preserve" it, value it enough even to say "Thank
>> you for showing it to me."
>
> I wasn't talking about those high-volume sexy sites. ; )
> As an example, don't you think that the content of all of the "What is it?"
> threads should be formally archived? Most of the folks at the sites
> that I go to are pretty respectful folks.
Theft strikes me as an especially poor way to show respect, regardless
of who's doing the stealing and who they're stealing from.
I don't normally see the "What is it?" threads - my filters are set up
to mark those posts as read (not killed, but read) because they're too
distracting for me. If you think they should be archived then you should
perhaps be corresponding with Rob - and discussing with /him/ how to
make doing so worth his time, effort, and server space (and/or offering
him /your/ time, effort, and server space) to set up and maintain that
archive.
I think most folks /are/ essentially honest and respectful of others -
and I don't have much use for those who aren't.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/8/2010 11:05 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Morris Dovey<[email protected]> wrote in news:hpm4j5$hup$1
> @speranza.aioe.org:
>
>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>
>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>
>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>
> If you can find the author or webmaster's e-mail address, you can ask
> before downloading the site. If you can find it... Most webmasters have
> removed their e-mail addresses due to the amount of spam, and don't check
> the webmaster@ e-mail address (again, due to spam.)
That's true - if the author can't be asked for permission and permission
isn't explicitly granted on the web site, then there is no permission.
The spammers have worked hard to be a problem. Since I /want/ feedback,
I've implemented a solution that works for me - I've put an e-mail link
on (I think) every one of my web pages that provides a subject
appropriate to that page - and most of those subject lines contain some
keyword that expresses that e-mail past the server filters. Since the
spambots universally disregard the subject portion of the link, the
strategy has worked fairly well.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/8/2010 11:49 PM, LDosser wrote:
>> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>>
>>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>>
>>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>>
>>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>>
>>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>>
>> If you don't want it copied, then copyright it. If you don't want it
>> copied for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.
>
> If your neighbors have that same opinion, you probably shouldn't park on a
> public street.
I lock my car. You?
>
> Under international law, the copyright exists from the instant of
> creation - and it exists without regard to location of its object.
If you put it on a web site open to the public, you have no protection from
Personal use. Zero.
Morris Dovey wrote:
> I understand the desire to preserve that which one values...
>
> ...and I maintain that taking someone else's property without their
> permission and without an exchange of value for value, is theft.
>
> Under international law, the right to make copies of authored (drawn,
> sculpted, photographed, composed, recorded,...) materials is the
> property of the creator from the very instant of creation.
Generally, just accessing a web page makes a copy and places it on your
computer. Look in your cache and see just how much stuff is in there.
I doubt anyone would get in trouble for having stuff freely available on
the web on their computer. Selling it, using it publicly and so on
could cause trouble, but simply copying stuff for personal use goes on
just by accessing the page. If you don't want it copied, you probably
shouldn't put it on a publicly accessible web page.
--
Jack
Obama Care: Efficiency of the DMV, compassion of the IRS!
http://jbstein.com
Morris Dovey wrote:
>>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>>
>> If you don't want it copied, then copyright it. If you don't want it
>> copied for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.
>
> If your neighbors have that same opinion, you probably shouldn't park on
> a public street.
>
> Under international law, the copyright exists from the instant of
> creation - and it exists without regard to location of its object.
Are you thinking you broke "international" law when you quoted
(copied/edited) someone's writing in a rec post, or do you think there
is some sort of implied permission to copy this copyrighted material?
I know Google must have copied trillions of copyrighted messages. I
don't recall allowing them to copy any of my messages and putting them
up for all to see, making money from all the ads my stuff is
generating... How about that?
--
Jack
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong
enough to take everything you have".
-- Thomas Jefferson
http://jbstein.com
Morris Dovey wrote:
> On 4/9/2010 12:37 AM, Bill wrote:
>> As an example, don't you think that the content of all of the "What is
>> it?" threads should be formally archived?
> Theft strikes me as an especially poor way to show respect, regardless
> of who's doing the stealing and who they're stealing from.
>
> I don't normally see the "What is it?" threads - my filters are set up
> to mark those posts as read (not killed, but read) because they're too
> distracting for me. If you think they should be archived then you should
> perhaps be corresponding with Rob - and discussing with /him/ how to
> make doing so worth his time, effort, and server space (and/or offering
> him /your/ time, effort, and server space) to set up and maintain that
> archive.
> I think most folks /are/ essentially honest and respectful of others -
> and I don't have much use for those who aren't.
So, Google is not your friend? I'm certain they are archiving all that
stuff, and this stuff, and all w/o permission, at least I don't recall
giving them permission, or you permission, to copy anything I write in
the Rec.
--
Jack
Conservatives believe every day is the Fourth of July, Liberals believe
every day is April 15.
http://jbstein.com
On 4/9/2010 3:54 AM, LDosser wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 11:49 PM, LDosser wrote:
>> If your neighbors have that same opinion, you probably shouldn't park
>> on a public street.
>
> I lock my car. You?
I also lock my car, but locks only keep the honest folks out.
>> Under international law, the copyright exists from the instant of
>> creation - and it exists without regard to location of its object.
>
> If you put it on a web site open to the public, you have no protection
> from Personal use. Zero.
In my case at least, I /intend/ personal use. For other uses, my
protection comes after the fact and offers the advantage of being paid
for by the offender. For more info you can contact
McKee, Voorhees & Sease, PLC
801 Grand Ave, Suite 3200
Des Moines, IA 50309
They're worth every penny of their fees. :)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
On 4/9/2010 12:49 AM, LDosser wrote:
> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>
>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>
>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>
>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>
>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>
>
> If you don't want it copied, then copyright it.
He does. So do you. By law in the United States, anything you write is
automatically copyrighted. Your kids' first scribblings are
copyrighted. No action is required. Some additional rights accrue if
you _register_ the copyright, however that is not necessary for a valid
copyright to exist. Everything you or I post to USENET is copyrighted
and if something you posted showed up in a bestseller sometime without
your prior permission being obtained you would probably be able to
collect damages.
On the other hand, quoting on USENET almost certainly falls under "fair
use", and unless somebody has profited significantly from unauthorized
use of your post the chance of obtaining damages sufficient to pay your
legal fees is pretty much zero.
> If you don't want it
> copied for Personal use, don't put it on a public web site.
Copying for "personal use" is in any case not necessarily precluded by
copyright, depending on what exactly you are copying and on the nature
of the "personal use"--it comes under "fair use" and "fair use" is a
minefield for both the holder of the copyright and the person making the
copy, because it's almost all case law and there's a lot of it, some of
which is probably contradictory.
On 4/9/2010 1:37 AM, Bill wrote:
> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 4/8/2010 10:21 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 4/8/2010 9:57 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> "Morris Dovey"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 4/8/2010 12:04 PM, Bill Leonhardt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it looks like it has value, steal it?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the sentiments were to keep things from becoming lost...as the
>>>>> publisher would probably would have liked.
>>>>
>>>> And so before the author has a chance to expire, you would steal his
>>>> work - just in case he made no provision for its continued publication?
>>>>
>>>> It's theft, and it honors no one.
>>>
>>> Maybe we're talking about two different things. I have never been to the
>>> site under discussion. But if I had investment myself in constructing a
>>> site, I would like it to have as much permanence as possible--sort of
>>> like
>>> planting a tree. I'm not talking about anything that has to do with
>>> theft...I'm talking about preservation. Do you think people write books
>>> mostly for the money (not in my field of expertise they don't...lol)?
>>
>> I understand the desire to preserve that which one values...
>>
>> ...and I maintain that taking someone else's property without their
>> permission and without an exchange of value for value, is theft.
>>
>> Under international law, the right to make copies of authored (drawn,
>> sculpted, photographed, composed, recorded,...) materials is the property
>> of the creator from the very instant of creation.
>>
>> Opinions on an author's motivation have no relevance, and calling theft
>> "preservation" doesn't change its nature.
>>
>> In my experience, fewer than one in a thousand of those who "value" work
>> sufficiently to want to "preserve" it, value it enough even to say "Thank
>> you for showing it to me."
>
> I wasn't talking about those high-volume sexy sites. ; )
> As an example, don't you think that the content of all of the "What is it?"
> threads should be formally archived? Most of the folks at the sites
> that I go to are pretty respectful folks.
Archiving is already taken care of. Google may be screwing it up these
days but they do make a pretty good attempt to keep the archive of every
USENET post that gets to their servers, except those with the
x-no-archive header or those that have been removed either at the
request of the author or because they were in some manner or other unlawful.
Of course if Google goes under that archive goes away.
The trouble with the "what is it" threads is that they don't make much
sense without the "what is it" images to go with them, and those images
belong to the site owner or whoever shoots them for him.
J. Clarke wrote:
> The trouble with the "what is it" threads is that they don't make much
> sense without the "what is it" images to go with them, and those images
> belong to the site owner or whoever shoots them for him.
Well, the "What Is It?" threads serve as a nice example of something
that I wouldn't wish for society to lose. I see them in the same
category as a museum-piece--actually, they document the museum pieces! :)
Bill
Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> On Apr 9, 3:50 am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
>>> people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
>> Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.
>>
>> Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
>> restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
>> email : Username is amgron
>> ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
>
> Jeff: So glad to have what you so freely share and I highly value
> accessable. Many thanks.
>
>
>
> Yo Group:
>
> I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
> enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
> took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
> copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
> day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
> web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
> thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
> their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
> When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
> copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
> experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
> not neither necessary nor expected.
>
> As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
> taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
> back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
> A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
> others.
>
> I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
> want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
> endevour as much.
>
> So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
> celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
> "here and now".
>
> Bill
Well said!
--the other Bill
"Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 4/9/2010 3:54 AM, LDosser wrote:
>> "Morris Dovey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 4/8/2010 11:49 PM, LDosser wrote:
>
>>> If your neighbors have that same opinion, you probably shouldn't park
>>> on a public street.
>>
>> I lock my car. You?
>
> I also lock my car, but locks only keep the honest folks out.
And make it more difficult for the dishonest folks.
>
>>> Under international law, the copyright exists from the instant of
>>> creation - and it exists without regard to location of its object.
>>
>> If you put it on a web site open to the public, you have no protection
>> from Personal use. Zero.
>
> In my case at least, I /intend/ personal use. For other uses, my
For other uses I agree with you completely!
There are ways to protect your web site. google 'protect site download' -
substitute 'site' with 'page' or 'image' for more info.
> protection comes after the fact and offers the advantage of being paid for
> by the offender. For more info you can contact
>
> McKee, Voorhees & Sease, PLC
> 801 Grand Ave, Suite 3200
> Des Moines, IA 50309
>
> They're worth every penny of their fees. :)
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Morris wrote:
>> I also lock my car, but locks only keep the honest folks out.
> -----------------------------------------
> "LDosser" wrote:
>
>> And make it more difficult for the dishonest folks.
> --------------------------------------------
> Had two brother-in-laws who were insurance agents and also
> sold a lot of auto insurance.
>
> Would listen to them tell tales of auto theft that were amazing.
>
> Both agreed that if a car thief walked up to your locked car and took
> more than two(2) minutes to break in, start up and drive away,
> they were still learning the profession.
>
> As Morris said, locks keep honest people honest.
>
> Lew
Met any teens lately?
"The Visitor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> least I don't recall
>> giving them permission, or you permission, to copy anything I write in
>> the Rec.
>
>
> This is such a public forum, you know you are being archieved. If you want
> privacey you can communicaate via email.
>
> I agree with others, a lot of people make websites a collections of
> techniques they want to teach to others. I have seen permission to copy,
> rarely a "do not copy" but largly it is not addressed. But knowing what I
> do of some of these people, they wouldn't mind at all. I think they would
> view it as "still teaching", so long as proper credit is given. And it
> isn't being done for commercial gain. Yes, I think that is a factor too.
>
> John
A few years back someone tried to bound and sell a bunch of "useful threads"
from a newsgroup,
and created all kinds of controversy by doing so. I don't recall how it
worked out,
but there was no shortage of opinions about the issue! : )
Bill
On 4/11/2010 3:57 PM, Bill wrote:
> "The Visitor"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Jack Stein"<[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> least I don't recall
>>> giving them permission, or you permission, to copy anything I write in
>>> the Rec.
>>
>>
>> This is such a public forum, you know you are being archieved. If you want
>> privacey you can communicaate via email.
>>
>> I agree with others, a lot of people make websites a collections of
>> techniques they want to teach to others. I have seen permission to copy,
>> rarely a "do not copy" but largly it is not addressed. But knowing what I
>> do of some of these people, they wouldn't mind at all. I think they would
>> view it as "still teaching", so long as proper credit is given. And it
>> isn't being done for commercial gain. Yes, I think that is a factor too.
>>
>> John
>
> A few years back someone tried to bound and sell a bunch of "useful threads"
> from a newsgroup,
> and created all kinds of controversy by doing so. I don't recall how it
> worked out,
> but there was no shortage of opinions about the issue! : )
Well, if they were binding it and selling it in printed form without
permission of the authors that is clear copyright violation.
Bill wrote:
> A few years back someone tried to bound and sell a bunch of "useful
threads"
> from a newsgroup,
> and created all kinds of controversy by doing so. I don't recall how it
> worked out,
> but there was no shortage of opinions about the issue! : )
In the days of FidoNet, I wrote an application that would automatically
scan the FOOD echo for recipes, it would separate the recipes from the
post, format them for a popular recipe program (QBOOK) and archive the
files for free downloading from my Bulletin Board. I never worried too
much about it other than some recipes that stated, and may have been,
the original recipes for stuff like KFC or McDonalds special sauce,
stuff like that. I had over 21,000 recipes.
Common sense tells you if you post something for public usage, it can be
used, particularly if not used for profit. Common sense also tells you
the judicial system has about as much common sense as a can of worms...
Google and YouTube are a wonder though, and hard to figure how a pack of
wild eyed lawyers haven't robbed them of all their money yet...
--
Jack
Got Change: big government =====> BIG GOVERNMENT!
http://jbstein.com
I replied earlier about Ken Vaughn's site, lamenting the loss of Ken's
knowledge. Well, I just did a search and found his site at this URL, which
I believe is newer:
http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/index.html Looks like, at least Ken, is
still around!
"Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:874fe215-17fd-4183-bcb0-e5626be5e229@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 9, 3:50 am, "Jeff Gorman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
> > people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
>
> Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.
>
> Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
> restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.
>
> Jeff
>
> --
> Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
> email : Username is amgron
> ISP is clara.co.ukwww.amgron.clara.net
Jeff: So glad to have what you so freely share and I highly value
accessable. Many thanks.
Yo Group:
I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
not neither necessary nor expected.
As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
others.
I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
endevour as much.
So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
"here and now".
Bill
Phil Anderson wrote:
> Yo Group:
>
> I started this thread and, since I've lurked about on the rec long
> enough to know better, I'm not surprised to see the direction it
> took. I'm not interested in debating intellectural property and
> copyright protection. Actually, I'm interested in woodworking. One
> day I hope to acquire the necessary skill and have the time to post
> web pages showing my shop, my projects, my jigs, etc. I have
> thoroughly enjoyed these posts from others who have freely shared
> their experiences. I have learned a lot and expect to learn more.
> When I do post, I expect anyone who sees my postings to be able to
> copy, save, share and use what they see and enhance their wood working
> experiences. I would also like feedback and a "thank you", but that's
> not neither necessary nor expected.
>
> As I've said before, I've lerned an awful lot because others have
> taken the time to post and, kinda like a debt, I expect to contribute
> back some as well. I see this group like I see my wood working club.
> A collection of folk who will freely share their skills and teach
> others.
>
> I am a hobbiest. Perhaps, if I did this for a living, I might not
> want to share info so freely, but I expect I would not enjoy this
> endevour as much.
>
> So again, I'm sad to see some of the quality sites slip away and I
> celebrate the opportunity to visit great sites (like Jeff's) that are
> "here and now".
>
> Bill
Well said! Lots here do it for a living and still love it!!!!!
--
You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK !
Mandriva 2010 using KDE 4.3
Website: www.rentmyhusband.biz
On 4/28/2010 7:40 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> What is your opinion of Morris Dovey's sentiments?
>
> If we were to archive pages from your site on our personal systems,
> would you consider it "stealing" or "preserving"?
To alleviate your obvious distress at my sentiments, the web page with
the offending copyrights has been moved to a private area on the server.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote
:: What is your opinion of Morris Dovey's sentiments?
:: If we were to archive pages from your site on our personal systems,
would you consider it "stealing" or "preserving"?
To be candid, having been on holiday, I've forgotten Morris's sentiments,
but when putting stuff on the internet I've always been aware that I've lost
control of it's eventual use. I gather that applications do exist for easily
downloading entire web sites.
I know how much people's hobbies can mean to them; my aim is to help folk
get good results by following time-honoured and sound techniques. I first
started this site when woodworking groups could only use ASCCII code to
construct drawings but it has extended to re-using material already
published (and paid for) that otherwise would be sitting on my hard drive
and doing nothing very useful.
Since it is freely offered, logically I can't see it as stealing, but I'd be
shocked if content (especially the pics) was copied 'verbatim' and blatantly
offered as someone's original work.
Fairly recently I saw that somebody has done a sketchup drawing of my ramped
shooting board (http://tinyurl.com/24zpu7a) but since he/she did acknowledge
the source, that was pleasing and OK by me. However, I don't know what I
would think if, as is extremely unlikely, somebody offered them for sale in
quantity without prior contact.
However it would make my day if, as has happened in the past, folk who
thought that the content was worth the trouble of archiving were also kind
enough to tell me. My slightly disguised email address is at the foot of
each posting, but not (so far) on the site itself.
The new, much-easier-to-use software that prompted me to restore the site
does offer a comment box but so far I'm a bit wary of trying it.
Jeff
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net
On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:45:27 -0700, Phil Anderson wrote:
> I replied earlier about Ken Vaughn's site, lamenting the loss of Ken's
> knowledge. Well, I just did a search and found his site at this URL,
> which I believe is newer:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~kvaughn65/index.html Looks like, at least Ken,
> is still around!
>
I thought I would never say this, but this guy has too many clamps.
basilisk
--
A wink is as good as a nod to a blind horse
In article
<[email protected]>,
Bill Leonhardt <[email protected]> wrote:
> I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
> people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
>
> A sad goodbye to Howard Ruttan who often posted great things.
>
> So sad to not be able to connect with Ken Vaughn's pages. Really a
> wealth of info now not available.
>
> Take heed and make a permanent copy of the valuable things you find.
>
> Bill
You can always try the internet archive at archive.org. They might have
saved a usable copy.
"Bill Leonhardt" <[email protected]> wrote
>I had occasion today to look at all the links I've saved on other
> people's workshops. Many, many dead links.
Although my site never quite died, I made it fade away for a while.
Folk who like to list useful links might like to know that I've recently
restored it, somewhat edited, to its former state.
Jeff
--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
email : Username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net