Hi, All...
I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
So, What is the concensus for putting glue on one piece, or both?
Is there a risk of glue starvation on an otherwise snug joint?
Thanks for any comments. Rich.....
[...snip...]
>
>The conventional wisdom is to wet both sides with glue. I think the
>reasoning is partial skinning, with yellow PVA especially, prevents full
>wetting of the mating face.
[...snip...]
Also simple surface tension; even if you are fast enough to avoid
skinning, you still have to physically break through the "skin" that
any liquid will have on the surface.
On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:32:28 -0500, Jack Stein <jbstein2@comcast.net>
wrote:
>cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Hmmmmmm... My take so far is to glue both sides, as there seems to be
>> no downside, and possible gain if both pieces are not wetted. Veneer
>> or similar exceptions noted. I wonder if there have been any tests as
>> to bond strength with only one side wetted? And I question the mfg
>> saying do two sides, since there may be bias from their legal dept, or
>> sales dept. Hmmm, this will take some more thought. Maybe glue some
>> scrap, and see how it breaks apart.
>
>Personally, if Leon says he hasn't glued both sides and never had a
>failure, thats good enough for me. I've always glued both sides, or one
>side and rubbed the two together to get even distribution. Now I think
>the glue companies say glue both sides to sell more glue... 30 years
>experience trumps just about anything...
I thought about that. Use more glue, sell more glue. Experienced
woodworkers know how much glue to apply. Glue dripping all over is
both a waste and a mess. If I were applying to one side only, this
would be the time to change and apply to both surfaces. A rubbed
joint is almost as good as applying to both surfaces.
On Jan 6, 6:32=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <sails....@verizon.net> wrote:
> In the SFWIW category, Sika is a major world wide player not only in
> marine, but also industrial sealants and adhesives.
When I was working in commercial work, we used an awful lot of
"Sikaflex" and its cousins when pouring tilt panels. All the vertical
joints were sealed with it, as well as the interior pad to panel
connections. We had a company that did nothing else, and they drove
up in trucks with 55 gallon barrels of that stuff on it and they used
pneumatic caulk guns.
I think some of those guys were artists in their other lives.
As it is now, we use some of their products in waterproofing details.
Between Sika and Sonneborn, I honestly can't think of better
manufacturers of waterproofing products.
Robert
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:19:08 -0800 (PST), cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com wrote:
>Hi, All...
>
> I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
>just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
>and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
>But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
>example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
>inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
>
>
> So, What is the concensus for putting glue on one piece, or both?
>Is there a risk of glue starvation on an otherwise snug joint?
>
>
> Thanks for any comments. Rich.....
I put glue on both mating surfaces, as recommended by the
manufacturer. But there are some glues that should only be applied to
one surface. Based on experience, I can get very close to limit the
amount of squeeze-out. In my earlier days glue dripped all over the
place. Like global warming, I don't believe "glue starvation" is an
issue and never heard glue manufacturers address it.
"StephenM" <sawdustnospam@primelink1.net> wrote in message
news:9i59l.88625$an4.35453@newsfe08.iad...
> Trimmed for brevity...
>
> >>> you still have to physically break through the "skin"
>>>> that any liquid will have on the surface.
>>>
>>>
>>> What is this skin you speak of? :-)
>>
>> He mentioned surface tension.
>
> I conceed that I did not address the surface tension interpretation of
> "skin".
>
> I believe that assembling a joint would provide sufficient force to
> overcome surface tension a.k.a. hydrostatic pressure.
The other half of that thought is if there's anything under that skin to
squeeze out, it's more squeeze out than I like. Normally, I run a squiggle
down each edge, and smear 'em to flat films with my finger. Each face is
fully wetted, leaving very little that can squeeze out. I suppose if I put
the same amount of glue, the same amount as for both edges, onto just the
first edge, there should be enough to squeeze out. I dunno. I guess it could
work, but just seems so hit or miss. You run a double size bead, and then
smoosh it around blindly with the other piece. Too small of a bead means not
enough glue; too much means lots of cleanup. As it is, I inevitably have to
wipe some extra off my finger, or move some of the extra to a slight dry
area. It could work. Just put on a double size squiggly bead, smoosh the two
across each other for half the squiggle distance, and come back a full
squiggle distance. It could work. It just seems so... so... imprecise?
caveman?
Come to think of it, that's not the real problem. Flat straight edges are
fast and easy, either way you do it. It's buttering up the biscuits and
feeding their holes, or painting up the M&T that takes up time. There's not
enough sliding room to do the smooshing around with biscuits, and none at
all with M&T. Do you just clamp and hope for the best?
On Jan 6, 1:39=A0pm, "Leon" <removespamlcb11...@swbell.net> wrote:
> Actually my comments are strictly concerning furniture and cabinet grade
> building when referencing a single side glue application. =A0
I knew what you were saying, I just took the liberty to expand on it a
bit.
> If gluing
> construction grade I am not too sure that too much is "too much".
Heh heh... no kiddin'.
When building a site built sandwich beam or a large header, I rely on
TB II 100%. Plywood and wood become as one. Never seen one of those
break or even deflect past the camber. Most of the time, not even
that much.
On another track, I am a big fan of the old school liquid nails, but
about 3 years ago tried the polyurethane tube glues. They seem to
hold like hell, fill in gaps well, and dry hard and completely water
resistant. The only downside is the tendency to creep and for the
glue to seep out of the joints. So for structure work, or for
something you will mechanically secure it's great.
Works well on the back of hardened masonite panels if you run into
that kind of paneling.
Have you tried any of those PU tube glues?
Robert
On Jan 6, 5:52=A0pm, "Leon" <removespamlcb11...@swbell.net> wrote:
> Nooouuu I have not, did not know that they existed. =A0Are they expensive=
?
No, I don't think so. I believe about $4.50 a tube. Liquid nails
makes their version:
http://tinyurl.com/99uy2t
and Sonneborn makes one as well. The neat thing is that you can use
them for just about everything.
> Seems there would be a lot of poly glue in one of those tubes. =A0
There is! And a little goes a long way with this stuff, too. The
good news is that if you make a mushroom cap of glue at the end of the
tube when you are finished, you can pull it out the next day and
continue to use it, so depending on what I am doing, I can usually use
the whole tube.
> I do
> occasionally use the masonite panels, the ones with the decorative surfac=
e
> on the other side. =A0I starten using that stuff 20 years ago in our kitc=
hen
> as a temp application to simulate a tile back splash. =A0It is still up o=
n the
> kitchen walls above the counter tops and still looks brand new. =A0
That is what started me using this stuff. I was putting up thin
masonite bead board that was hard polished from the presses on one
side, and finished "Glacier White" backed enamel bead pattern on the
other. I had to secure the top and bottom and glue the field because
the a brad left a dimple *ugly) in a perfectly white and clean
finish. I covered the bottom of the piece with a beaded screen so I
could nail there, and the top with a really small chair rail. No glue
only joints in the field have popped or moved in about 5 years.
> Does the
> caulk poly have a faster tack?
Not faster than regular solvent Liquid Nails. Probably just a tiny
bit longer on the poly stuff.
I like the poly for a lot of things because if its viscosity. For
example, weather is cool today. With LN, a nice bead must be mashed
out as it will be thick due to the cooler weather. Temps (until it
gets really hot) don't seem to change the poly much, and it is really
easy to work with. A nice bead of the stuff squishes down nicely with
little effort, and no spring back like I have had with LN in cool
weather.
The poly dries really hard and is impervious to water. Old faithful
LN dries pretty hard, and is porous, making it susceptible to water
damage if used outside.
Both still have a place for me in the tool box.
Robert
On Jan 7, 10:16=A0am, Pat Barber <mboceans...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Liquid Nails has gone nuts with so many
> versions of what I think is the same product.
>
> I don't understand that marketing method but
> it sure is confusing.
I am thinking that the old formula stuff is all the same as well.
Maybe a tiny bit of formula change to stay clear of litigation, but
nothing significant.
In a pinch, I have used all the old solvent based stuff for anything
as needed and never had a failure.
Robert
cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi, All...
>
> I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
> just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
> and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
> But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
> example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
> inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
>
>
> So, What is the concensus for putting glue on one piece, or both?
> Is there a risk of glue starvation on an otherwise snug joint?
I use yellow Titebond 99.8% of the time.
I put glue on one surface...a bead in a sine wave shape.
When I mate them, I slide them (horizontally) into position then clamp.
If the glue had skinned a bit before joining the sliding/clamping breaks the
skin and distributes glue.
If you get squeeze out (I always do) there is no "starvation". If you fear
it, use more glue and clean off the squeeze out.
I have never had a joint fail.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
Trimmed for brevity...
>>> you still have to physically break through the "skin"
>>> that any liquid will have on the surface.
>>
>>
>> What is this skin you speak of? :-)
>
> He mentioned surface tension.
I conceed that I did not address the surface tension interpretation of
"skin".
I believe that assembling a joint would provide sufficient force to overcome
surface tension a.k.a. hydrostatic pressure.
-Steve
<nailshooter41@aol.com> wrote:
>On another track, I am a big fan of the old school liquid nails, but
about 3 years ago tried the polyurethane tube glues. They seem to
hold like hell, fill in gaps well, and dry hard and completely water
resistant. The only downside is the tendency to creep and for the
glue to seep out of the joints. So for structure work, or for
something you will mechanically secure it's great.
Works well on the back of hardened masonite panels if you run into
that kind of paneling.
Have you tried any of those PU tube glues?
Funny you should mention Liquid Nails.
My first below ground, tank farm, electronic liquid level inventory
control and measurement system sold was to a Liquid Nails
manufacturing facility.
Changes in EPA requirements made it less costly to build a new
facility than to rehab the existing one.
In the SFWIW category, Sika is a major world wide player not only in
marine, but also industrial sealants and adhesives.
There USA tech service is located in metro Detroit complete with an
800#.
Have always found them to be very much up to snuff when it comes to
getting application assistance.
Also, their distributors will work with you.
YMMV
Lew
> Also simple surface tension; even if you are fast enough to avoid
> skinning, you still have to physically break through the "skin" that
> any liquid will have on the surface.
What is this skin you speak of? :-)
Seriously, is I take a little extra time with a glueup, I end up with higher
viscosity glue not "skin".
Are you woodworking in the desert?
-Steve
"MikeWhy" <boat042-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:EaD8l.13436$c45.4415@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
> "Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:Wtz8l.770$%54.693@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
Snip
>
> Might be that my view is skewed from using glue that seems half dried from
> the start. The low humidity isn't helping, either.
Climate certainly has an effect on the glue.
>
> A coupla weeks ago, I did a simple box shape, 4 sides and a ply sheet, 16
> biscuits in all, that had to come together as one glue up. The glue was
> some old yellow Elmers I had left over from last century, and skins over
> almost as it's leaving the bottle. I'm thinking of chucking the remaining
> half gallon and just get simple white glue. Fuhget about Titebond dis or
> dat, and watertight nuthin. I just want the glue to still be glue when I
> stick the pieces together. It was a hectic footrace, and I had 12 of them
> to do. The last few weren't any more fun than the first few.
As the old saying goes, glue is cheap compared to your time an other
materials. Get rid of your old glue. I keep several glues on hand and
mostly for color. TB II IMHO has a pretty long open time for a regular wood
glue but tends to be runny and a bit messy and you need very good fitting
joints to hide the yellow. The old Elmer's Tite Bond had a fast tack but
fried closer to white. TB III seems a bit thicker and dries to an actual
medium brown wood color. Recently I have used Gorilla WHITE PVA Woodworkers
glue because it is white and does not dry with a distracting color, this was
for a maple project. Also TB Trim Adhesive is white and dries to a non
yellow color however it dries a bit more quickly and is very thick, IIRC it
will not pour out of the bottle, you have to squeeze the bottle to dispense.
Then there is the slow set TB glue for longer open times. I buy poly
urethane as needed, it's expensive, has a short shelf life, and is really
messy if you are not careful.
"Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:Wtz8l.770$%54.693@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "MikeWhy" <boat042-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:oYv8l.245$PE4.223@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> "Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:nav8l.13408$c45.10009@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>
>>> In 30 years I cannot remember a time when I applied regular wood working
>>> glue to both sides unless end grain in involved. You really don't want
>>> to glue both pieces if one is a veneer. I have never had a joint fail
>>> because I did not put glue on both sides. Really, the glue gets on both
>>> sides when you put them together. If you have a good tight joint to
>>> start with there will be no starvation.
>>
>> The conventional wisdom is to wet both sides with glue. I think the
>> reasoning is partial skinning, with yellow PVA especially, prevents full
>> wetting of the mating face. It's easy enough to check. Stick two faces
>> together and then pull them apart and see if both faces are fully wetted.
>> There were distinct dry patches when I did this even, with an excess of
>> glue. What does it mean? I guess most joints are over-designed in regards
>> glue surface to begin with.
>
> Yeah but if the glue skims over, it does so on both pieces does skimmed
> over glue stick well to skimmed over glue? ;!)
I wrote unclearly. By the time you're done painting up the one side, part of
it will have already skinned over. If you glue only one face, leaving the
other face dry, that joint will be skinned glue on bare wood, and probably
compromised. Skinned glue on skinned glue is the normal case, I think, and
perfectly OK.
>>> That said, if you glue both sides you do have more open time on a
>>> complicated glue up.
>>
>> Which is made up for by requiring more time to spread glue on the other
>> side. I do wish it were so, though. I'm tired of rushing the glue up to
>> get them into clamps soon enough.
>
> With lots of practice you eventually learn to get the glue out spread
> quickly qirh out muxh fuss. I remember a time when glue up required
> lots of set up time. Not so much any more. I probably should have
> qualified my statement more. If glueing end grain I tyically apply glue
> to the end gran and let the soaking in start up, glue the mating surface
> and then rewet the end grain side and then clamp.
Might be that my view is skewed from using glue that seems half dried from
the start. The low humidity isn't helping, either.
A coupla weeks ago, I did a simple box shape, 4 sides and a ply sheet, 16
biscuits in all, that had to come together as one glue up. The glue was some
old yellow Elmers I had left over from last century, and skins over almost
as it's leaving the bottle. I'm thinking of chucking the remaining half
gallon and just get simple white glue. Fuhget about Titebond dis or dat, and
watertight nuthin. I just want the glue to still be glue when I stick the
pieces together. It was a hectic footrace, and I had 12 of them to do. The
last few weren't any more fun than the first few.
<cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a3248fcb-47ec-472e-9dfb-1e427890a4da@r36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Hmmmmmm... My take so far is to glue both sides, as there seems to be
> no downside, and possible gain if both pieces are not wetted. Veneer
> or similar exceptions noted. I wonder if there have been any tests as
> to bond strength with only one side wetted? And I question the mfg
> saying do two sides, since there may be bias from their legal dept, or
> sales dept. Hmmm, this will take some more thought. Maybe glue some
> scrap, and see how it breaks apart.
With polyurethane the "wet" water is the catalyst, it really does not do
much other than activating the glue. If you applied glue to the wet side
you start to get foaming and curing sooner than you might want.
>>
>> What is this skin you speak of? :-)
>>
>> Seriously, is I take a little extra time with a glueup, I end up with
>> higher viscosity glue not "skin".
>
> With most common woodworking glues - yellow, white - the glue dries from
> the outside in. If you put a drop somewhere it will form a skin...push on
> it and fresh, unskinned glue gushes forth.
>
> Yours is probably "higher viscosity" because it is a thin layer and the
> higher viscosity is because it has skinned. Higher viscosity/skinned is
> not good because it won't wet out the wood as it should.
"skin" could be defined as viscosity gradiant. In my experience, I do not
notice any gradiant, just thicker glue.
Then again, maybe I just work quickly. If I don't think I can get an
assembly together within 10 minutes, I try to find a way to get it done with
sub-assemblies.
The OP initially asked (paraphrased) Gluing, one side or two? More often
than not my glued surface stays open to the air for less than 2 minutes ...
viscosity/skin seldom comes into play. It would probably be fair to say
that gluing both sides buys wou a little more working time if you need it.
-Steve
StephenM wrote:
>> Also simple surface tension; even if you are fast enough to avoid
>> skinning, you still have to physically break through the "skin" that
>> any liquid will have on the surface.
>
>
> What is this skin you speak of? :-)
>
> Seriously, is I take a little extra time with a glueup, I end up with
> higher viscosity glue not "skin".
With most common woodworking glues - yellow, white - the glue dries from the
outside in. If you put a drop somewhere it will form a skin...push on it
and fresh, unskinned glue gushes forth.
Yours is probably "higher viscosity" because it is a thin layer and the
higher viscosity is because it has skinned. Higher viscosity/skinned is not
good because it won't wet out the wood as it should.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"MikeWhy" <boat042-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:oYv8l.245$PE4.223@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
> "Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message
> news:nav8l.13408$c45.10009@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>> In 30 years I cannot remember a time when I applied regular wood working
>> glue to both sides unless end grain in involved. You really don't want
>> to glue both pieces if one is a veneer. I have never had a joint fail
>> because I did not put glue on both sides. Really, the glue gets on both
>> sides when you put them together. If you have a good tight joint to
>> start with there will be no starvation.
>
> The conventional wisdom is to wet both sides with glue. I think the
> reasoning is partial skinning, with yellow PVA especially, prevents full
> wetting of the mating face. It's easy enough to check. Stick two faces
> together and then pull them apart and see if both faces are fully wetted.
> There were distinct dry patches when I did this even, with an excess of
> glue. What does it mean? I guess most joints are over-designed in regards
> glue surface to begin with.
Yeah but if the glue skims over, it does so on both pieces does skimmed over
glue stick well to skimmed over glue? ;!)
>
>>
>> That said, if you glue both sides you do have more open time on a
>> complicated glue up.
>
> Which is made up for by requiring more time to spread glue on the other
> side. I do wish it were so, though. I'm tired of rushing the glue up to
> get them into clamps soon enough.
With lots of practice you eventually learn to get the glue out spread
quickly qirh out muxh fuss. I remember a time when glue up required lots
of set up time. Not so much any more. I probably should have qualified my
statement more. If glueing end grain I tyically apply glue to the end gran
and let the soaking in start up, glue the mating surface and then rewet the
end grain side and then clamp.
Hmmmmmm... My take so far is to glue both sides, as there seems to be
no downside, and possible gain if both pieces are not wetted. Veneer
or similar exceptions noted. I wonder if there have been any tests as
to bond strength with only one side wetted? And I question the mfg
saying do two sides, since there may be bias from their legal dept, or
sales dept. Hmmm, this will take some more thought. Maybe glue some
scrap, and see how it breaks apart.
I almost always just hit one edge except if I'm gluing something
porous - like hardwood edging onto plywood. Then I hit the ply and
the hardwood. (Except if it's wider edging - then I hit the ply, let
it soak in for 30 seconds or so and then hit it again - and I don't
put glue on the hardwood because I don't want to have to work to keep
it just on the portion that will be attached to the plywood.)
That said, I glued up a long miter on site today and put a thin coat
on both surfaces before clamping/taping. But for simple hardwood
panel glue-ups I just hit one edge with just enough glue to give me
just a little squiggly line of squeeze-out - not wider than say 1/16"
wide on top.
Soooo.....I guess my answer is "it depends"!
JP
<nailshooter41@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d50ef352-8441-45e9-b0f0-8a42b2c9d573@a12g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 6, 11:32 am, Jack Stein <jbste...@comcast.net> wrote:
Snip
I think the "glue both sides" part of the equation is to make up for
poor technique and joining failure as much as possible. That way not
enough clamp pressure, improper surface preparation, improper
application, and maybe even stinginess with the glue can be at least
partially overcome with glue on both mating surfaces.
Just a thought...
Robert
Actually my comments are strictly concerning furniture and cabinet grade
building when referencing a single side glue application. If gluing
construction grade I am not too sure that too much is "too much".
On Jan 5, 3:19 pm, cwo4cno7...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi, All...
>
> I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
> just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
> and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
> But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
> example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
> inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
In a panel glue up that thick, the joint is so strong what difference
is a theoretical couple of spots that didn't adhere going to make?
Nil. But having more glue than you need contributes to the boards
sliding around out of alignment, wastes glue, more cleanup. You could
do it on both sides at just the ends if you really thought it would
make a difference.
In a contest between glue spread out evenly on one side, and glue on
both sides but just a bead run down without spreading, my money would
be on the spread on one side being stronger.
-Kevin
On Jan 6, 11:32=A0am, Jack Stein <jbste...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Personally, if Leon says he hasn't glued both sides and never had a
> failure, thats good enough for me.
I'm sure that's true. Personally, I glue as needed, and it depends on
which glue I am using.
Glue has become such an integral part of my repair/remodel business, I
think the only things we use more is screws.
If I am doing a utility glue, I only glue one side, unless the
material is rough and porous like OSB or CDX. Most repairs, the same
way. When I put a small broken piece of material back or attach a
piece of trim, I just glue one side.
I still glue both edges when I do a layup, though. I don't worry
about a "glue starved joint" or any business like that. No matter the
amount of prep, the edges may not mate up to standards of invisibility
when attached. I want glue in the hairline joint, no a void I have to
fill later after sanding or planing. I think my odds of filling that
tiny void are much better with both sides glued. Maybe not... but I
know I am not alone; that's why we have colored glue, right?
> =A0Now I think
> the glue companies say glue both sides to sell more glue... =A030 years
> experience trumps just about anything...
Think about it. How many non-trades people use so much glue that they
constantly replace their supply? How fresh is the glue that many DIYs
are using? Think how many posts have been here about guys that are
trying to make the remaining skinned over gel in their bottles work by
heating, adding water, etc., instead of buying a new $4 bottle of
glue.
I think the "glue both sides" part of the equation is to make up for
poor technique and joining failure as much as possible. That way not
enough clamp pressure, improper surface preparation, improper
application, and maybe even stinginess with the glue can be at least
partially overcome with glue on both mating surfaces.
Just a thought...
Robert
<nailshooter41@aol.com> wrote in message
news:79469a58-eaba-451d-aa50-08d62f9e5516@17g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 6, 1:39 pm, "Leon" <removespamlcb11...@swbell.net> wrote:
When building a site built sandwich beam or a large header, I rely on
TB II 100%. Plywood and wood become as one. Never seen one of those
break or even deflect past the camber. Most of the time, not even
that much.
On another track, I am a big fan of the old school liquid nails, but
about 3 years ago tried the polyurethane tube glues. They seem to
hold like hell, fill in gaps well, and dry hard and completely water
resistant. The only downside is the tendency to creep and for the
glue to seep out of the joints. So for structure work, or for
something you will mechanically secure it's great.
Works well on the back of hardened masonite panels if you run into
that kind of paneling.
Have you tried any of those PU tube glues?
Nooouuu I have not, did not know that they existed. Are they expensive?
Seems there would be a lot of poly glue in one of those tubes. I do
occasionally use the masonite panels, the ones with the decorative surface
on the other side. I starten using that stuff 20 years ago in our kitchen
as a temp application to simulate a tile back splash. It is still up on the
kitchen walls above the counter tops and still looks brand new. Does the
caulk poly have a faster tack?
cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi, All...
>
> I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
> just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
> and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
> But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
> example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
> inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
>
>
> So, What is the concensus for putting glue on one piece, or both?
> Is there a risk of glue starvation on an otherwise snug joint?
>
>
> Thanks for any comments. Rich.....
Both surfaces. Always. Ever brush glue onto a surface over a large
area then come back to where you started and see all the places you
missed or where it didn't get into the pores? I'd imagine the same
thing would be true of the unglued piece inside the joint that you can't
see once you've put them together.
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hmmmmmm... My take so far is to glue both sides, as there seems to be
> no downside, and possible gain if both pieces are not wetted. Veneer
> or similar exceptions noted. I wonder if there have been any tests as
> to bond strength with only one side wetted? And I question the mfg
> saying do two sides, since there may be bias from their legal dept, or
> sales dept. Hmmm, this will take some more thought. Maybe glue some
> scrap, and see how it breaks apart.
Personally, if Leon says he hasn't glued both sides and never had a
failure, thats good enough for me. I've always glued both sides, or one
side and rubbed the two together to get even distribution. Now I think
the glue companies say glue both sides to sell more glue... 30 years
experience trumps just about anything...
--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://Motzarella.org
http://jbstein.com
It's funny (and fun) how we get so caught up with simple things.
Musicians do the same thing.
A drummer friend of mine once said,
"We have a tendency to make rocket science out of hitting things with
sticks."
:-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
mike@mikedrumsDOT.com
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
StephenM wrote:
>> Also simple surface tension; even if you are fast enough to avoid
>> skinning, you still have to physically break through the "skin"
>> that
>> any liquid will have on the surface.
>
>
> What is this skin you speak of? :-)
>
> Seriously, is I take a little extra time with a glueup, I end up
> with
> higher viscosity glue not "skin".
>
> Are you woodworking in the desert?
He mentioned surface tension. Even pure water has a skin in that
sense--some critters even use it to move about (google "water strider"
for one example).
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
StephenM wrote:
> Trimmed for brevity...
>
> >>> you still have to physically break through the "skin"
>>>> that any liquid will have on the surface.
>>>
>>>
>>> What is this skin you speak of? :-)
>>
>> He mentioned surface tension.
>
> I conceed that I did not address the surface tension interpretation
> of
> "skin".
>
> I believe that assembling a joint would provide sufficient force to
> overcome surface tension a.k.a. hydrostatic pressure.
Surface tension is not hydrostatic pressure. Surface tension is a
molecular adhesion effect that occurs even in the absence of
significant pressure.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:37:38 -0600, "Leon"
<removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote:
>
>"MikeWhy" <boat042-nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:oYv8l.245$PE4.223@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
>> "Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:nav8l.13408$c45.10009@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>
>>> In 30 years I cannot remember a time when I applied regular wood working
>>> glue to both sides unless end grain in involved. You really don't want
>>> to glue both pieces if one is a veneer. I have never had a joint fail
>>> because I did not put glue on both sides. Really, the glue gets on both
>>> sides when you put them together. If you have a good tight joint to
>>> start with there will be no starvation.
>>
>> The conventional wisdom is to wet both sides with glue. I think the
>> reasoning is partial skinning, with yellow PVA especially, prevents full
>> wetting of the mating face. It's easy enough to check. Stick two faces
>> together and then pull them apart and see if both faces are fully wetted.
>> There were distinct dry patches when I did this even, with an excess of
>> glue. What does it mean? I guess most joints are over-designed in regards
>> glue surface to begin with.
>
>Yeah but if the glue skims over, it does so on both pieces does skimmed over
>glue stick well to skimmed over glue? ;!)
>
I've never had a "skim over," but I plan a glue up carefully to get
the piece assembled quickly. Glue brushes, glue roller, unused credit
card, and finger is what I use to spread glue quickly. Clamps, jigs,
damp rag are nearby. Dryfitting everything speeds everything up and
if the item is complex, I'll glue up part of it.
<cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:faa2490f-85e2-4b3c-b910-009ccd0ec3e2@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
> Hi, All...
>
> I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
> just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
> and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
> But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
> example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
> inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
>
>
> So, What is the concensus for putting glue on one piece, or both?
> Is there a risk of glue starvation on an otherwise snug joint?
>
>
> Thanks for any comments. Rich.....
In 30 years I cannot remember a time when I applied regular wood working
glue to both sides unless end grain in involved. You really don't want to
glue both pieces if one is a veneer. I have never had a joint fail because
I did not put glue on both sides. Really, the glue gets on both sides when
you put them together. If you have a good tight joint to start with there
will be no starvation.
That said, if you glue both sides you do have more open time on a
complicated glue up.
"Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:nav8l.13408$c45.10009@nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> <cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:faa2490f-85e2-4b3c-b910-009ccd0ec3e2@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
>> Hi, All...
>>
>> I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
>> just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
>> and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
>> But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
>> example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
>> inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
>>
>>
>> So, What is the concensus for putting glue on one piece, or both?
>> Is there a risk of glue starvation on an otherwise snug joint?
>>
>>
>> Thanks for any comments. Rich.....
>
> In 30 years I cannot remember a time when I applied regular wood working
> glue to both sides unless end grain in involved. You really don't want to
> glue both pieces if one is a veneer. I have never had a joint fail
> because I did not put glue on both sides. Really, the glue gets on both
> sides when you put them together. If you have a good tight joint to start
> with there will be no starvation.
The conventional wisdom is to wet both sides with glue. I think the
reasoning is partial skinning, with yellow PVA especially, prevents full
wetting of the mating face. It's easy enough to check. Stick two faces
together and then pull them apart and see if both faces are fully wetted.
There were distinct dry patches when I did this even, with an excess of
glue. What does it mean? I guess most joints are over-designed in regards
glue surface to begin with.
>
> That said, if you glue both sides you do have more open time on a
> complicated glue up.
Which is made up for by requiring more time to spread glue on the other
side. I do wish it were so, though. I'm tired of rushing the glue up to get
them into clamps soon enough.
cwo4cno7325@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hi, All...
>
> I was watching a good video on YouTube on woodworking, and the guy
> just glued one piece of a board before clamping. I use Titebond III
> and try to avoid end grain joints with tenons, rabits, or what ever.
> But I generally apply glue to BOTH pieces before clamping. For
> example, gluing up 3 six inch boards to make an 18 inch panel, 3/4
> inch final thickness: Glue to all edges, then clamp.
>
>
> So, What is the concensus for putting glue on one piece, or both?
> Is there a risk of glue starvation on an otherwise snug joint?
>
>
> Thanks for any comments. Rich.....
It depend on the type of glue being used. Directions for polyurethane
adhesives, for example, suggest dampening one edge and applying the glue
to the second edge.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
novasys@verizon.net