On Apr 22, 11:08=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/22/2010 9:51 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
> > So..o..o..o..o......., guys should take home ec classes. Cuz it helps t=
hem
> > get laid. It certainly worked that way for the guys in those classes.
>
> Why do you think I took the typing class .... =A0:)
>
> --www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlC@ (the obvious)
The loss of this vocational training seems to be a great loss to our
society. Only time will tell if we've irreparably shot ourselves in
the collective foot. The old addage says you reap what you sew.
JoeG
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 09:26:55 -0500, the infamous Swingman
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/21/2010 11:39 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
>> districts have closed their trade schools. My school teacher friends
>> (one is an Industrial Arts teacher and the other is a teacher career
>> counselor) have told me that the high schools now consider themselves
>> college prep schools, not schools that teach life skills as well.
>
><snip>
>
>> Beats the hell out of me.
>
>HISD has a much touted policy of their high schools preparing students
>for careers as office workers for government and corporate entities.
...and they all end up as mantra repeaters: "Do you want fries..."
>Politicians prefer unarmed peasants sitting in cubicles.
Who will vote for them no matter what assinine antics they pull.
Like signing unfinished 1,000 and 3,000 page bills without having read
them. If I were the Prez, I'd find a way to impeach every last one of
them, toss them out on their asses, and revoke their retirement and
elitist healthcare packages.
--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is necessary that he should
not only be capable of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin
In article <[email protected]>, Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Luckily, they still exist here in Spokane WA. At least wood shop does.
Still here in Saskatoon, too.
On 2010-04-21 22:49:52 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]> said:
> Motivated by something I read online, I just visited my old high
> school's web page and couldn't locate any remnants of wood shop, metal
> shop, or auto shop. Have these sorts of classes mostly been removed
> (across the board) from high school programs now?
Probably disappeared from most schools, though you might still find
such classes at "career centers*" -- essentially high schools geared to
technical subjects -- though many are skewing to robotics, networking,
and other computer-related subjects.
*There are nine in central Indiana. The best-known is probably
Washington Township's J. Everett Light Career Center. Lawrence, Ben
Davis, Central Nine are the only others that float to mind at the
moment.
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
> districts have closed their trade schools.
<snip supporting rant>
There is no question our educational system is in serious trouble.
The current educational process is a failure IMHO.
Gone are the traditional trade apprentice programs, but not the need
for the product that these apprentice programs produced.
High schools have for various reasons, no longer offer programs in
home Ec, sewing, wood working, auto shop, etc, but the need for the
finished product still exists.
(Wonder if my high school still offers a 4 year agriculture program.
Farming has changed, but it still is big business in my old home town)
4 year academic high schools are producing a product that often
requires remedial instruction at the collegiate entry level before
they can proceed on the business at hand.
Not a particularly good mark of excellence for our public high
schools.
The kids themselves face a totally different world than most of us
faced in our youth.
Kids no longer have time to be kids.
Cell phones, TV & personal computers have replaced parents in far too
many homes IMHO.
For the life of me, can't understand why more than maybe 10% of kids
need a cell phone.
Basic respect for authority seems to be non existent.
I still remember getting mouthy with my high school foot ball coach, a
retired pro football player.
BIG MISTAKE.
During football practice, received an "Attitude adjustment" that made
me see a few things differently.
I don't have any meaningful suggestions, but the current
administration is giving the problem something other than lip service
to the problem.
Time will tell.
Lew
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
*trim*
>
> You ain't alone Robert. Even though I ended up behind a computer desk
> for most of my livelyhood, the most valuable life skills I've retained
> are from middle and high school mechanical drawing, metal shop, and
> wood shop classes. I've become a fair cook, but I wish it had been
> fashionable for guys to take the girly classes as I'm sure I'd be a
> much better cook - seems to be an important life skill especially
> looking at the girth of many of the younger generations.
Home ec and shop classes are essential, if for nothing else but mental
stability. They get kids off their hind ends and gives their brain a
chance to relax from the stress of memorization. Trying to stuff facts
into a person's head just isn't good for them. They'll either overload
and get things messed up or go nuts.
Humans just are not designed to sit and store and retrieve data all day.
That's the job of a database. They're designed to be flexible and
mobile, in order to deal with a wide variety of problems and issues.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
"Swingman" wrote ...
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>
>> I've become a fair cook, but I wish it had been
>> fashionable for guys to take the girly classes as I'm sure I'd be a much
>> better cook - seems to be an important life skill especially looking at
>> the girth of many of the younger generations.
>
> Where I come from men are born cooks and teach their wives. Home Ec was so
> the girls could learn how to wash up.
>
Shop and home ec classes?? In my Jr High, there was some problems with a
few folks left over and not enough room in the class for them. So some folks
got reassigned. It was voluntary. For example I was taken out of my music
class and given extra art classes. This was fine with me. And a few guys
were offered home ec classes instead of shop.
It turms out that the guys in home ec classes were the playboys, the lady
killers, etc. These guys used the classes, with mostly girls, to develop
their dating networks. And were heavily involved with those girls throughout
high school.
Many years later, I ran into one of the guys who did this. He had a a
girlfriend, one of the most beautiful girls in school. And he developed that
relationship in home ec class. And yes, he still cooks. And the ladies love
him for it too..
So..o..o..o..o......., guys should take home ec classes. Cuz it helps them
get laid. It certainly worked that way for the guys in those classes.
In fact, you could argue that eliminating home ec classes discriminate
against guys who want to "network" with babes in need of good lovin". ;-)
On 2010-04-22 03:54:23 -0400, notbob <[email protected]> said:
> The concept of instilling discipline was removed from schools by
> vocal, yet wimpy parents, decades ago. That is the failure of our
> schools, today. You can't leave kids with an adult for 8 hrs, yet
> strip that adult of all adult authority. That's just insane and it
> makes for insane kids.
If you leave discipline to the teachers, you've already lost the
battle. Discipline begins (or should begin) in the home. Period.
Steve <[email protected]> wrote in news:4bd0f958$0$5009
[email protected]:
> On 2010-04-22 03:54:23 -0400, notbob <[email protected]> said:
>
>> The concept of instilling discipline was removed from schools by
>> vocal, yet wimpy parents, decades ago. That is the failure of our
>> schools, today. You can't leave kids with an adult for 8 hrs, yet
>> strip that adult of all adult authority. That's just insane and it
>> makes for insane kids.
>
> If you leave discipline to the teachers, you've already lost the
> battle. Discipline begins (or should begin) in the home. Period.
>
If you take discipline away from the teachers, you've also lost. Teachers
that cannot effectively discipline their classes will get run over.
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:49:52 -0400, "Bill" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>Motivated by something I read online, I just visited my old high school's
>web page and couldn't locate any remnants of wood shop, metal shop, or auto
>shop. Have these sorts of classes mostly been removed (across the board)
>from high school programs now?
>
>Bill
>
>
The cost of running 2 or more "shops" is likely equal to the entire
budget of the rest of the school. Regional schools, tech and
community colleges have taken over. Too bad too. At the high school
level, at least a kid got a taste of a variety of processes and was
better equiped to make their choices of interest sooner.
P
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 2010-04-23 01:00:31 -0400, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> said:
> If you take discipline away from the teachers, you've also lost.
> Teachers that cannot effectively discipline their classes will get run
> over.
True -- I wasn't advocating teachers should be unable to discipline,
but merely pointing out they should not be called to act in place of
parental responsibility.
Full disclosure - my wife is a high school English teacher.
"Scatter" wrote:
> It's crazy as, even if you're only interested in high tech as a
> society (which is insane), industrial arts should still be required
> for anyone doing engineering. Engineers (and I'm one) need to know
> how
> to design, draw, and build.
--------------------------------------------
Those places exist, they are called Co-Op schools.
I went to one.
Lew
On Wed, 19 May 2010 08:12:20 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote the
following:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>...
>
>> My first engineering job involved beating other engineers over the head
>> until they came up with the results that were needed. They really
>> needed somebody with a management degree, not engineering, for that job.
>> The next one I was a number cruncher and I was a lot happier with that
>> one but it didn't last.
>...
>
>My first employer (like many in those days) had two "career ladders" for
>engineering; a management and technical supposedly parallel path. The
>technical ladder, however, was missing a very large number of rungs of
>opportunities for advancement as compared to the managerial side. My
>first boss was always searching for ways to provide additional benefits
>at annual review time but my choice to stay technical limited the
>options of positions available so when ran out of $$ at grade he talked
>me into taking the managerial slot. I reluctantly agreed but discovered
>I simply was so disinterested in such other tasks that were adjunct to
>the position such as yours mentioned above plus the scheduling, progress
>reporting, etc., etc., that I soon ceased doing much of it and was
>relieved of the position. This happened three times iirc; I much later
>at his retirement shindig learned that was his plan all along until I
>had accrued the "time in grade" to actually get the Sr Engineer title as
>he knew personnel wouldn't make him retract the pay and office once
>bestowed... :)
>
>May "RAT" rest in peace; best man to work for ever (and not a bad
>engineer)...
Yes, RIPRAT!
--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle
Scatter <[email protected]_not_set.invalid> writes:
> Pure analysis/math kind of engineering jobs aren't exactly the most
> common out there (although academia or particular fields will have
> significant numbers).
LOL - We had a lot of "Power Point Engineers" in my old company.
On 2010-05-11, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Spent nearly 40 years in engineering (nuclear and fossil utilities,
> nuclear-based analyzer instruments for coal producers/prep plants and
> power plants, robotics and controls, instrumentation, ...) and never
> drew or directly built a thing in my entire career. I was/am a
> physics/math/solver type...designers were for designing and the
> manufacturing guys built the stuff... :)
The rule is always proven by the exception?
Pure analysis/math kind of engineering jobs aren't exactly the most
common out there (although academia or particular fields will have
significant numbers).
I consider a good engineer to be well rounded and able to handle
engineering situations outside of their speciality. That doesn't mean
that we can do anything though.
On 2010-04-23, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:
> If you take discipline away from the teachers, you've also lost. Teachers
> that cannot effectively discipline their classes will get run over.
Worse, many parents are openly hostile to teachers who make any
attempt at discipline. I can't tell you how many times I've heard
irate and indignant parents say, "How dare that teacher discipline my
kid!". That's a clear message to the kid he has no reason to respect
another adult's authority. This is just absurd. Unfortunately, this
stripping of a authority has become institutionalized and is the basis
of so much of what's wrong with the last couple generations.
nb
On 2010-04-22, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
> The kids themselves face a totally different world than most of us
> faced in our youth.
Nonsense. Two plus two still equals four and the methods of teaching
it have not improved despite decades of tampering.
> Kids no longer have time to be kids.
No doubt the role of "kid" has changed.
> Basic respect for authority seems to be non existent.
>
> I still remember getting mouthy with my high school foot ball coach, a
> retired pro football player.
>
> BIG MISTAKE.
The concept of instilling discipline was removed from schools by
vocal, yet wimpy parents, decades ago. That is the failure of our
schools, today. You can't leave kids with an adult for 8 hrs, yet
strip that adult of all adult authority. That's just insane and it
makes for insane kids.
Geez..... don't get me started. :|
nb
On 2010-04-22, Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
> You ain't alone Robert. Even though I ended up behind a computer desk
> for most of my livelyhood, the most valuable life skills I've retained
> are from middle and high school mechanical drawing, metal shop, and wood
> shop classes. I've become a fair cook, but I wish it had been
> fashionable for guys to take the girly classes as I'm sure I'd be a much
> better cook - seems to be an important life skill especially looking at
> the girth of many of the younger generations.
Well said.
nb
On 2010-04-22, LDosser <[email protected]> wrote:
> Around here (Oregon) the shop type classes started migrating to the
> Community Colleges in the early 1970s. By the 1990s the migration was pretty
> much complete. There are some exceptions and some experimentation with
> 'magnet' schools here and there, but the notion of 'Industrial Arts' is
> gone.
It's crazy as, even if you're only interested in high tech as a
society (which is insane), industrial arts should still be required
for anyone doing engineering. Engineers (and I'm one) need to know how
to design, draw, and build.
[email protected] wrote:
> Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
> districts have closed their trade schools. My school teacher friends
> (one is an Industrial Arts teacher and the other is a teacher career
> counselor) have told me that the high schools now consider themselves
> college prep schools, not schools that teach life skills as well. In
> that light, there is no need to teach people how to weld, do
> carpentry, electrical work, A/C work, bake, cook, cater, etc.
>
> After all, the folks that take those classes for any length of time
> won't be going to college anyway in their eyes. So the mainstream of
> the teachers and administrators are not concerned with them.
>
> To back that up, one of the most prestigious school districts here in
> town layed off or moved to other subjects if possible the Industrial
> Arts teachers. About 35 of them in the high schools.
>
> Now they proudly have no possible blue collar type individuals that
> work on cars or build cabinets.
>
> But if the get that kid to graduate, he will be ready for college!
> That is, if his parents can afford it, and if he/she is actually
> interested and wants to go.
>
> If you don't choose college as your path in high school these days,
> you are screwed.
>
> Personally, I don't get it. I talked with an administrator (roofing
> client of mine) for a different district where they serve an average
> or better income group of families. He said their classes were always
> full, and the kids had to keep their other grades up to stay in. They
> literally turn away the kids as they don't have enough classroom/shop
> space.
>
> Why they are closing these programs, I don't know. Knowing what my A/
> C man makes (holy crap!!) and the guy that works on my truck (had some
> of his certifications before he left high school), I don't see why
> those aren't viable career paths. They do quite well.
>
> Beats the hell out of me.
>
> Robert
You ain't alone Robert. Even though I ended up behind a computer desk
for most of my livelyhood, the most valuable life skills I've retained
are from middle and high school mechanical drawing, metal shop, and wood
shop classes. I've become a fair cook, but I wish it had been
fashionable for guys to take the girly classes as I'm sure I'd be a much
better cook - seems to be an important life skill especially looking at
the girth of many of the younger generations.
On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:08:44 -0500, the infamous Swingman
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>On 4/22/2010 9:51 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> So..o..o..o..o......., guys should take home ec classes. Cuz it helps them
>> get laid. It certainly worked that way for the guys in those classes.
>
>Why do you think I took the typing class .... :)
I took typing in 9th grade and I'm sure glad I did. The teacher was a
raggedy old (gorgeous blonde about 35) woman. A couple years later, I
realized what I'd missed when I was 14. She was truly Penthouse
material. ;)
--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is necessary that he should
not only be capable of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin
On 4/21/2010 11:39 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
> districts have closed their trade schools. My school teacher friends
> (one is an Industrial Arts teacher and the other is a teacher career
> counselor) have told me that the high schools now consider themselves
> college prep schools, not schools that teach life skills as well.
<snip>
> Beats the hell out of me.
HISD has a much touted policy of their high schools preparing students
for careers as office workers for government and corporate entities.
Politicians prefer unarmed peasants sitting in cubicles.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
districts have closed their trade schools. My school teacher friends
(one is an Industrial Arts teacher and the other is a teacher career
counselor) have told me that the high schools now consider themselves
college prep schools, not schools that teach life skills as well. In
that light, there is no need to teach people how to weld, do
carpentry, electrical work, A/C work, bake, cook, cater, etc.
After all, the folks that take those classes for any length of time
won't be going to college anyway in their eyes. So the mainstream of
the teachers and administrators are not concerned with them.
To back that up, one of the most prestigious school districts here in
town layed off or moved to other subjects if possible the Industrial
Arts teachers. About 35 of them in the high schools.
Now they proudly have no possible blue collar type individuals that
work on cars or build cabinets.
But if the get that kid to graduate, he will be ready for college!
That is, if his parents can afford it, and if he/she is actually
interested and wants to go.
If you don't choose college as your path in high school these days,
you are screwed.
Personally, I don't get it. I talked with an administrator (roofing
client of mine) for a different district where they serve an average
or better income group of families. He said their classes were always
full, and the kids had to keep their other grades up to stay in. They
literally turn away the kids as they don't have enough classroom/shop
space.
Why they are closing these programs, I don't know. Knowing what my A/
C man makes (holy crap!!) and the guy that works on my truck (had some
of his certifications before he left high school), I don't see why
those aren't viable career paths. They do quite well.
Beats the hell out of me.
Robert
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:e1c3516d-61d1-45e5-9194-aa97d1c5a6ed@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
> districts have closed their trade schools. My school teacher friends
> (one is an Industrial Arts teacher and the other is a teacher career
> counselor) have told me that the high schools now consider themselves
> college prep schools, not schools that teach life skills as well. In
> that light, there is no need to teach people how to weld, do
> carpentry, electrical work, A/C work, bake, cook, cater, etc.
I've been looking at your message and thinking and recollecting
for half an hour...it's sad, sad, sad!
On 4/21/2010 11:39 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Now they proudly have no possible blue collar type individuals that
> work on cars or build cabinets.
>
> But if the get that kid to graduate, he will be ready for college!
> That is, if his parents can afford it, and if he/she is actually
> interested and wants to go.
>
> If you don't choose college as your path in high school these days,
> you are screwed.
It's even worse than that - those who do graduate have no sense of
/possibilities/ other than what they might see that already is...
...and if they should dream up a solution to some problem that requires
them to build something new, they won't have a clue how to go about
doing that, or with what - and once the old-timers are no longer around
to mentor, the solutions and products (some of 'em, anyway) will come
from some other part of the world.
Methinks it was a foolish, expensive choice.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:e1c3516d-61d1-45e5-9194-aa97d1c5a6ed@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
> Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
> districts have closed their trade schools. My school teacher friends
> (one is an Industrial Arts teacher and the other is a teacher career
> counselor) have told me that the high schools now consider themselves
> college prep schools, not schools that teach life skills as well. In
> that light, there is no need to teach people how to weld, do
> carpentry, electrical work, A/C work, bake, cook, cater, etc.
>
> After all, the folks that take those classes for any length of time
> won't be going to college anyway in their eyes. So the mainstream of
> the teachers and administrators are not concerned with them.
>
> To back that up, one of the most prestigious school districts here in
> town layed off or moved to other subjects if possible the Industrial
> Arts teachers. About 35 of them in the high schools.
>
> Now they proudly have no possible blue collar type individuals that
> work on cars or build cabinets.
>
> But if the get that kid to graduate, he will be ready for college!
> That is, if his parents can afford it, and if he/she is actually
> interested and wants to go.
>
> If you don't choose college as your path in high school these days,
> you are screwed.
>
> Personally, I don't get it. I talked with an administrator (roofing
> client of mine) for a different district where they serve an average
> or better income group of families. He said their classes were always
> full, and the kids had to keep their other grades up to stay in. They
> literally turn away the kids as they don't have enough classroom/shop
> space.
>
> Why they are closing these programs, I don't know. Knowing what my A/
> C man makes (holy crap!!) and the guy that works on my truck (had some
> of his certifications before he left high school), I don't see why
> those aren't viable career paths. They do quite well.
>
> Beats the hell out of me.
>
> Robert
Around here (Oregon) the shop type classes started migrating to the
Community Colleges in the early 1970s. By the 1990s the migration was pretty
much complete. There are some exceptions and some experimentation with
'magnet' schools here and there, but the notion of 'Industrial Arts' is
gone.
On 4/22/2010 2:39 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Struck down by severe cases of profound stupidity, most school
>> districts have closed their trade schools.
>
> <snip supporting rant>
>
> There is no question our educational system is in serious trouble.
>
> The current educational process is a failure IMHO.
>
> Gone are the traditional trade apprentice programs, but not the need
> for the product that these apprentice programs produced.
>
> High schools have for various reasons, no longer offer programs in
> home Ec, sewing, wood working, auto shop, etc, but the need for the
> finished product still exists.
>
> (Wonder if my high school still offers a 4 year agriculture program.
> Farming has changed, but it still is big business in my old home town)
>
> 4 year academic high schools are producing a product that often
> requires remedial instruction at the collegiate entry level before
> they can proceed on the business at hand.
>
> Not a particularly good mark of excellence for our public high
> schools.
>
> The kids themselves face a totally different world than most of us
> faced in our youth.
>
> Kids no longer have time to be kids.
>
> Cell phones, TV& personal computers have replaced parents in far too
> many homes IMHO.
>
> For the life of me, can't understand why more than maybe 10% of kids
> need a cell phone.
>
> Basic respect for authority seems to be non existent.
>
> I still remember getting mouthy with my high school foot ball coach, a
> retired pro football player.
>
> BIG MISTAKE.
>
> During football practice, received an "Attitude adjustment" that made
> me see a few things differently.
>
> I don't have any meaningful suggestions, but the current
> administration is giving the problem something other than lip service
> to the problem.
The Bush administration gave the problem more than lip service and we
ended up with "no child left behind", which has apparently resulted in
all children being pulled down to the level of the slowest. Wanna know
why no shop classes anymore, there you have it--there's no standardized
test for it.
If the Feds included "must be able to square a block with a hand plane"
in the skills that kids have to demonstrate then you'd see those shops
open right back up. But they aren't going to do that because it's not a
test that an automatic scoring machine can grade.
If Obama's "doing something" is anything like what he did about "health
care" ("you people who don't have insurance because you can't afford it,
go out and buy it anyway or we'll fine you, and if you're so poor we
can't get a fine out of you then you're screwed") then I expect a disaster.
Look at what he says he wants to do: "Improve K-12 schooling" by some
magic process as yet undefined, "Expand access to higher education" when
a college degree is already pretty much meaningless, and "make sure our
children are prepared for kindergarten".
If I saw that last from a netloon I'd just plonk him--not even worth
trying to discuss anything with such a buffoon. But there it is, that's
how we're going to fix education--start earlier with the same old
ineffective worthless BULLSHIT.
On 04/22/2010 10:08 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 4/22/2010 9:51 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> So..o..o..o..o......., guys should take home ec classes. Cuz it helps
>> them
>> get laid. It certainly worked that way for the guys in those classes.
>
> Why do you think I took the typing class .... :)
Same here, but the hottest girl in my typing class was the teacher! She posed so much of a
distraction that the other girls in the class couldn't get the time of day from us guys...
--
See Nad. See Nad go. Go Nad!
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
On Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:04:40 -0400, Steve wrote:
> Motivated by something I read online, I just visited my old high
>> school's web page and couldn't locate any remnants of wood shop, metal
>> shop, or auto shop. Have these sorts of classes mostly been removed
>> (across the board) from high school programs now?
>
> Probably disappeared from most schools
Luckily, they still exist here in Spokane WA. At least wood shop does.
I know at least two wood shop teachers that shop at the local Woodcraft.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
"Scatter" <[email protected]_not_set.invalid> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2010-04-22, LDosser <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Around here (Oregon) the shop type classes started migrating to the
>> Community Colleges in the early 1970s. By the 1990s the migration was
>> pretty
>> much complete. There are some exceptions and some experimentation with
>> 'magnet' schools here and there, but the notion of 'Industrial Arts' is
>> gone.
>
> It's crazy as, even if you're only interested in high tech as a
> society (which is insane), industrial arts should still be required
> for anyone doing engineering. Engineers (and I'm one) need to know how
> to design, draw, and build.
>
The very best design engineers spent their first year or more in
Manufacturing - the place where you find out that using 15 different types
of screw is not necessarily a Good Idea.
Scatter wrote:
...
> ... industrial arts should still be required
> for anyone doing engineering. Engineers (and I'm one) need to know how
> to design, draw, and build.
'Pends on what _KIND_ of engineer one is (and I'm one, too :) ).
Spent nearly 40 years in engineering (nuclear and fossil utilities,
nuclear-based analyzer instruments for coal producers/prep plants and
power plants, robotics and controls, instrumentation, ...) and never
drew or directly built a thing in my entire career. I was/am a
physics/math/solver type...designers were for designing and the
manufacturing guys built the stuff... :)
--
On 5/10/2010 8:40 PM, dpb wrote:
> Scatter wrote:
> ...
>
>> ... industrial arts should still be required
>> for anyone doing engineering. Engineers (and I'm one) need to know how
>> to design, draw, and build.
>
> 'Pends on what _KIND_ of engineer one is (and I'm one, too :) ).
>
> Spent nearly 40 years in engineering (nuclear and fossil utilities,
> nuclear-based analyzer instruments for coal producers/prep plants and
> power plants, robotics and controls, instrumentation, ...) and never
> drew or directly built a thing in my entire career. I was/am a
> physics/math/solver type...designers were for designing and the
> manufacturing guys built the stuff... :)
My first engineering job involved beating other engineers over the head
until they came up with the results that were needed. They really
needed somebody with a management degree, not engineering, for that job.
The next one I was a number cruncher and I was a lot happier with that
one but it didn't last.
J. Clarke wrote:
...
> My first engineering job involved beating other engineers over the head
> until they came up with the results that were needed. They really
> needed somebody with a management degree, not engineering, for that job.
> The next one I was a number cruncher and I was a lot happier with that
> one but it didn't last.
...
My first employer (like many in those days) had two "career ladders" for
engineering; a management and technical supposedly parallel path. The
technical ladder, however, was missing a very large number of rungs of
opportunities for advancement as compared to the managerial side. My
first boss was always searching for ways to provide additional benefits
at annual review time but my choice to stay technical limited the
options of positions available so when ran out of $$ at grade he talked
me into taking the managerial slot. I reluctantly agreed but discovered
I simply was so disinterested in such other tasks that were adjunct to
the position such as yours mentioned above plus the scheduling, progress
reporting, etc., etc., that I soon ceased doing much of it and was
relieved of the position. This happened three times iirc; I much later
at his retirement shindig learned that was his plan all along until I
had accrued the "time in grade" to actually get the Sr Engineer title as
he knew personnel wouldn't make him retract the pay and office once
bestowed... :)
May "RAT" rest in peace; best man to work for ever (and not a bad
engineer)...
--
Scatter wrote:
...
> I consider a good engineer to be well rounded and able to handle
> engineering situations outside of their speciality. That doesn't mean
> that we can do anything though.
I spent only about 10-12 years of the 40 in a field more than remotely
related to my engineering major specialty. In consulting, I rarely did
even a very similar task more than once; in general, my job was always
to work my self _out_of_ a job by solving whatever problem was the
bottleneck or hang up. Sometimes it had to do w/ a product functional
design, sometimes w/ QA/reliability/manufacturing process control, other
times a new instrument process (pulverized coal flow by a novel concept
vis advanced nonlinear signal processing was one); for a while did field
support and nuclear training and site-specific implementation for online
analyzers at coal mines, prep plants and mine-mouth power plants to
adapt the company's base instrument to specific situations, ... While I
worked in analytical fields virtually entire career, it was not in any
one narrow discipline. If I would claim any area of particular
enjoyment it would probably be the application of probabilistic and
statistical techniques to engineering problems and similar.
One thing I _can't_ do is draw well; I avoided the second semester of
drawing as a freshman in uni because I heard the plan was to switch from
two 2-hr courses to a single 3-hr course the following year so I figured
if I had two hours they'd let me substitute something else for the
lacking credit for the four in the curriculum when I enrolled by the
time I was ready to graduate... :)
--
On 22 Apr 2010 08:36:13 GMT, the infamous Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> scrawled the following:
>Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>*trim*
>>
>> You ain't alone Robert. Even though I ended up behind a computer desk
>> for most of my livelyhood, the most valuable life skills I've retained
>> are from middle and high school mechanical drawing, metal shop, and
>> wood shop classes. I've become a fair cook, but I wish it had been
>> fashionable for guys to take the girly classes as I'm sure I'd be a
>> much better cook - seems to be an important life skill especially
>> looking at the girth of many of the younger generations.
>
>
>Home ec and shop classes are essential, if for nothing else but mental
>stability. They get kids off their hind ends and gives their brain a
>chance to relax from the stress of memorization. Trying to stuff facts
>into a person's head just isn't good for them. They'll either overload
>and get things messed up or go nuts.
>
>Humans just are not designed to sit and store and retrieve data all day.
> That's the job of a database. They're designed to be flexible and
>mobile, in order to deal with a wide variety of problems and issues.
Well stated, Pucky. There's a book about that. http://fwd4.me/AtS
Crawford's _Shop Class as Soulcraft_. He writes at a high level, so
it's not a quick or easy book to read. Now that I've got more time,
I'll finish reading it.
--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is necessary that he should
not only be capable of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin
On 4/22/2010 12:07 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> I've become a fair cook, but I wish it had been
> fashionable for guys to take the girly classes as I'm sure I'd be a much
> better cook - seems to be an important life skill especially looking at
> the girth of many of the younger generations.
Where I come from men are born cooks and teach their wives. Home Ec was
so the girls could learn how to wash up.
:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)