Inspired by Craigslist ads that run -- "power tools $50 obo leave phone
number on awnser macheen if you want to sea some but dont call again if I
don't call you back stupid" -- I'd love to see Craigslist adopt a set of
conditions something along the following lines:
A for-sale ad must feature the brand name of the item and the full model
name or number, failure to provide both costs ten points unless both are
clearly visible in your photo.
If multiple items are on offer, using the phrase "Too many to list" or
"E-mail or phone to find out what I have" indicates you should have had a
garage sale instead, minus ten points.
Failure to provide an in-focus, properly-lit photo costs ten points, but
multiple photos from different angles or appropriate close-ups adds ten
points. Not having a photo and offering to e-mail one to anyone interested
costs an additional ten points. Referring in your text to a photo (or web
link, or phone number) you have failed to include, minus ten points.
Use of a manufacturer's photo while failing to mention the one you have for
sale was used to prop up the axle of an old pickup truck for ten years and
has been 10% converted to rust, minus ten points towards your next ad when
would-be purchasers report that.
Use of the phrase "skill saw" (lower case or capitalized) in reference to
any product including those made by Skilsaw Inc., minus ten points.
Compounding that by combining "skill saw" with another brand name, e.g.
"Black and Decker Skillsaw" deducts another ten points.
Placing an entirely inappropriate ad such as pool cleaning in the tools for
sale section, minus ten points.
Failure to indicate whether the original accessories and instruction manual
come with the item costs ten points. Throwing in extra items not originally
included like a spare blade or shop-vac attachment adds ten points.
Use of OBO (or best offer) if you don't really mean you'll take the best
offer you get, bad karma but otherwise hard to enforce.
Putting at least three useful pieces of info in the listing title--e.g. item
description (drill press or table saw), brand & model, location--ten bonus
points.
Offering to haul the item to a more convenient location for a possible
purchaser's viewing, plus ten points.
Including the reason for selling the product adds ten points only if it
provides useful info. "I need the money" tells us nothing. "I'm selling
this benchtop model only because I got the bigger fixed-base model from the
same company," is reassuring as to your satisfaction with the product.
Additional info like informing us you want to sell it before your ex-wife's
lawyer finds out you have it and sells it for you, while entertaining,
offers no bonus points.
Accurately describing the amount of wear on the item adds ten points.
"Still works" does not qualify.
Use of terms like "vintage," "classic," or "antique" when you really mean
worn-out, rusty and nasty costs ten points.
Failure to observe the selling price of identical items and instead asking
for an unrealistically high price and then making grudging reductions in the
price over a period of weeks when everybody knew what they go for used all
along, minus ten points.
Failure to describe any significant problem costs five hundred points
(requires reporting by purchaser once he's out of the hospital).
Thirty or more negative points and CL pulls the ad. Leftover negative
points apply to your next ad just to make sure you learned your lesson.
Positive points don't accumulate because there is no excuse for a
badly-written ad, this ain't rocket science.
In regard to garage/yard/estate sales:
If you list a strict starting time but sell all the good stuff to
early-birds anyway, I hope it starts raining, hard, immediately after I
return to my car. If you list a strict starting time and then don't open
the door until half an hour later while a dozen of us bake in the sun
watching you sip coffee through the window, I hope somebody calls in a bomb
threat. If your estate sale ad specifies "complete woodworking shop with
many tools" and you *really* mean the family grabbed all the good stuff and
left a scattering of rusty old junk that the sale agents are asking silly
amounts of money for, I hope you get audited for back taxes on the estate.
And to the goofs who ran the estate sale with big displays outside last
weekend and forgot to turn off the automatic lawn sprinklers, your tardy
opening and highball pricing earned you that.
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:52:11 +0100, Tom Veatch wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:57:48 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Our local shopper paper has ads
>> for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time or two they had
>> "arm saw"
>
> Often that kind of "mis-listing" can be laid off on totally clueless
> people on the phone taking the listing. That's probably where the
> classic "Radio Alarm Saw" listing came from.
>
so if you call again to put it right....
A redial arm saw?
I regularly see drums advertized with symbols. Again probably "operator
error."
However...
local post office had hand written advertisement for "Old Station puppies."
More for Ebay than Craiglist. The listing of "Free P&P" when they mean you
have to go and pick the item up should carry a mandatory death penalty
followed by a lifetime ban.
I once waited two weeks for an item that was clearly listed C.O.D. and when
the vendor finally returned my phone call he explained that that meant I
could pay when I picked it up.
Twunt!!!
I have never seen as much thought and accurate spelling
in a post here in many moons.
Bravo
PS:
CraigsList is a free/give away/throw away/hooker/porn/
web site that as far as I can tell has no visible means
of support or income. You should not be annoyed by the
lack of professional services.
I did like your post.
DGDevin wrote:
I'd love to see Craigslist adopt a set of conditions something
along the following lines:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:57:48 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Our local shopper paper has ads
>for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time or two they had
>"arm saw"
Often that kind of "mis-listing" can be laid off on totally clueless
people on the phone taking the listing. That's probably where the
classic "Radio Alarm Saw" listing came from.
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Apr 21, 11:03=A0am, Pat Barber <[email protected]> wrote:
(snip to) CraigsList is a free/give away/throw away/hooker/porn/
> web site that as far as I can tell has no visible means
AFAIK, Craigslist derives its income from job postings for which they
charge.
For everything else, you get good value for the price you pay :)
Doug Miller wrote:
>> I've pretty much given up on used tools. Our local shopper paper
>> has ads for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time
>> or two they had "arm saw".
>
> My favorite was the "radio alarm saw".
Heh, that's a good one. Recently in used furniture I saw someone selling
"High boy dresses," although of course I don't judge people's personal
lifestyles. My old favorite for-sale ad was for a "Three tear wedding
cake," there must have been a sad story there.
Tom Veatch wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:23:08 -0400, Maxwell Lol <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Job Applications and hookers pay.
>
> Couldn't you consider "hooker" ads to be "Job Applications"?
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
Yeah, but they're all temp positions, like the dept. store Santa's elves,
you know: Ho, Ho and Ho....
Pat Barber <[email protected]> writes:
> I have never seen as much thought and accurate spelling
> in a post here in many moons.
>
> Bravo
>
> PS:
>
> CraigsList is a free/give away/throw away/hooker/porn/
> web site that as far as I can tell has no visible means
> of support or income.
Not so. Job Applications and hookers pay.
On Apr 21, 6:31=A0am, [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "Ed Pawlowski" <=
[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> =A0This ain't Antiques Roadshow folks, we're not interested in the box=
.
>
> >But sometimes the box is worth more than the crap item they are trying t=
o
> >sell.
>
> >I've pretty much given up on used tools. =A0Our local shopper paper has =
ads
> >for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. =A0Another time or two the=
y had
> >"arm saw".
>
> My favorite was the "radio alarm saw".
After a chuckle, I don't get too hung up on such. It may be a widow,
or kids, trying to unload the old man's stuff.
DGDevin wrote:
> Bill Hall wrote:
>
>> An additional 30 point deduction for Listing a Harbor Freight tool
>> for 20 % more than you could buy the item at HF.
>> Bill in Plano
>
> Damn, yeah I missed that one. For that matter selling anything used
> for pretty much the same price as the local big-box store is bogus,
> but caveat emptor. I'm amazed at how many people think they can
> recover 80% of what they paid for something when they sell it used,
> or who think because they still have the original box that somehow
> makes the tool worth more. This ain't Antiques Roadshow folks, we're
> not interested in the box.
You'd be surprised at the market in boxes!
Thieves gather them - with the stuffings - and put stolen 42" LCD TVs in
them to sell as "new but would not fit my room."
An additional 30 point deduction for Listing a Harbor Freight tool for 20 %
more than you could buy the item at HF.
Bill in Plano
"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Inspired by Craigslist ads that run -- "power tools $50 obo leave phone
> number on awnser macheen if you want to sea some but dont call again if I
> don't call you back stupid" -- I'd love to see Craigslist adopt a set of
> conditions something along the following lines:
>
> A for-sale ad must feature the brand name of the item and the full model
> name or number, failure to provide both costs ten points unless both are
> clearly visible in your photo.
>
> If multiple items are on offer, using the phrase "Too many to list" or
> "E-mail or phone to find out what I have" indicates you should have had a
> garage sale instead, minus ten points.
>
> Failure to provide an in-focus, properly-lit photo costs ten points, but
> multiple photos from different angles or appropriate close-ups adds ten
> points. Not having a photo and offering to e-mail one to anyone
> interested costs an additional ten points. Referring in your text to a
> photo (or web link, or phone number) you have failed to include, minus ten
> points.
>
> Use of a manufacturer's photo while failing to mention the one you have
> for sale was used to prop up the axle of an old pickup truck for ten years
> and has been 10% converted to rust, minus ten points towards your next ad
> when would-be purchasers report that.
>
> Use of the phrase "skill saw" (lower case or capitalized) in reference to
> any product including those made by Skilsaw Inc., minus ten points.
> Compounding that by combining "skill saw" with another brand name, e.g.
> "Black and Decker Skillsaw" deducts another ten points.
>
> Placing an entirely inappropriate ad such as pool cleaning in the tools
> for sale section, minus ten points.
>
> Failure to indicate whether the original accessories and instruction
> manual come with the item costs ten points. Throwing in extra items not
> originally included like a spare blade or shop-vac attachment adds ten
> points.
>
> Use of OBO (or best offer) if you don't really mean you'll take the best
> offer you get, bad karma but otherwise hard to enforce.
>
> Putting at least three useful pieces of info in the listing title--e.g.
> item description (drill press or table saw), brand & model, location--ten
> bonus points.
>
> Offering to haul the item to a more convenient location for a possible
> purchaser's viewing, plus ten points.
>
> Including the reason for selling the product adds ten points only if it
> provides useful info. "I need the money" tells us nothing. "I'm selling
> this benchtop model only because I got the bigger fixed-base model from
> the same company," is reassuring as to your satisfaction with the product.
> Additional info like informing us you want to sell it before your
> ex-wife's lawyer finds out you have it and sells it for you, while
> entertaining, offers no bonus points.
>
> Accurately describing the amount of wear on the item adds ten points.
> "Still works" does not qualify.
>
> Use of terms like "vintage," "classic," or "antique" when you really mean
> worn-out, rusty and nasty costs ten points.
>
> Failure to observe the selling price of identical items and instead asking
> for an unrealistically high price and then making grudging reductions in
> the price over a period of weeks when everybody knew what they go for used
> all along, minus ten points.
>
> Failure to describe any significant problem costs five hundred points
> (requires reporting by purchaser once he's out of the hospital).
>
> Thirty or more negative points and CL pulls the ad. Leftover negative
> points apply to your next ad just to make sure you learned your lesson.
> Positive points don't accumulate because there is no excuse for a
> badly-written ad, this ain't rocket science.
>
> In regard to garage/yard/estate sales:
>
> If you list a strict starting time but sell all the good stuff to
> early-birds anyway, I hope it starts raining, hard, immediately after I
> return to my car. If you list a strict starting time and then don't open
> the door until half an hour later while a dozen of us bake in the sun
> watching you sip coffee through the window, I hope somebody calls in a
> bomb threat. If your estate sale ad specifies "complete woodworking shop
> with many tools" and you *really* mean the family grabbed all the good
> stuff and left a scattering of rusty old junk that the sale agents are
> asking silly amounts of money for, I hope you get audited for back taxes
> on the estate. And to the goofs who ran the estate sale with big displays
> outside last weekend and forgot to turn off the automatic lawn sprinklers,
> your tardy opening and highball pricing earned you that.
>
Pat Barber wrote:
> I have never seen as much thought and accurate spelling
> in a post here in many moons.
>
> Bravo
>
> PS:
>
> CraigsList is a free/give away/throw away/hooker/porn/
> web site that as far as I can tell has no visible means
> of support or income. You should not be annoyed by the
> lack of professional services.
>
> I did like your post.
Thanks. I've found some good garage sales via Craigslist, picked up some
good tools and accessories. And I see some terrific deals on tools despite
all the rubbish also being offered. I'm still kicking myself over passing
on a Bosch ROS recently, but there will be another one along next week, or
next month. In the meantime it's fun to snort at some of the bizarre
listings.
"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Inspired by Craigslist ads that run -- "power tools $50 obo leave phone
> number on awnser macheen if you want to sea some but dont call again if I
> don't call you back stupid" -- I'd love to see Craigslist adopt a set of
> conditions something along the following lines:
>
> A for-sale ad must feature the brand name of the item and the full model
> name or number, failure to provide both costs ten points unless both are
> clearly visible in your photo.
>
SNIP
I use Craig list and wonder how many people find things. I listed 2 items
(expensive items) in a Colorado listing. Both sold to people in Canada. Also
watch out for this type of reply. I will send full price plus extra money
for shipping. I will have my shipper pick item up. This has been received on
expensive items only. If you recall the"Nigerian scam" this is the style
used. WW
In article <[email protected]>, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:57:48 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Our local shopper paper has ads
>>for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time or two they had
>>"arm saw"
>
>Often that kind of "mis-listing" can be laid off on totally clueless
>people on the phone taking the listing. That's probably where the
>classic "Radio Alarm Saw" listing came from.
Absolutely. I once saw an ad in the paper for a horse, that said "nose is
stuffed". After spending several minutes in complete perplexity, I finally
realized that the ad must have been phoned in: "Knows his stuff".
I'm sure that's the explanation for an ad I saw a few years ago for a "medal
lath" (metal lathe).
"Tom Veatch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:25:54 -0600, "WW" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>...This has been received on
>>expensive items only. If you recall the"Nigerian scam" this is the style
>>used
>
> Doesn't really have to be that expensive. I had one of those responses
> to a listing for a couple of 100# propane bottles that I was asking
> $125 for the pair. And he wanted me to ship to England!!
>
> Tom Veatch
> Wichita, KS
> USA
I had one and I've never even had a listing. I replied and asked if he
wanted the dresser or the refrigerator so he said "both". He wanted to send
a check, but I insisted on a $100 cash deposit. Never heard back.
Boy you hit the nail right on the head with this post. After daily
reading the tool ads for the last several months I can't tell you how
many times I have laughed out load at the titles/descriptions.
"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Inspired by Craigslist ads that run -- "power tools $50 obo leave
> phone number on awnser macheen if you want to sea some but dont call
> again if I don't call you back stupid" -- I'd love to see Craigslist
> adopt a set of conditions something along the following lines:
>
> A for-sale ad must feature the brand name of the item and the full
> model name or number, failure to provide both costs ten points unless
> both are clearly visible in your photo.
>
> If multiple items are on offer, using the phrase "Too many to list" or
> "E-mail or phone to find out what I have" indicates you should have
> had a garage sale instead, minus ten points.
>
> Failure to provide an in-focus, properly-lit photo costs ten points,
> but multiple photos from different angles or appropriate close-ups
> adds ten points. Not having a photo and offering to e-mail one to
> anyone interested costs an additional ten points. Referring in your
> text to a photo (or web link, or phone number) you have failed to
> include, minus ten points.
>
> Use of a manufacturer's photo while failing to mention the one you
> have for sale was used to prop up the axle of an old pickup truck for
> ten years and has been 10% converted to rust, minus ten points towards
> your next ad when would-be purchasers report that.
>
> Use of the phrase "skill saw" (lower case or capitalized) in reference
> to any product including those made by Skilsaw Inc., minus ten points.
> Compounding that by combining "skill saw" with another brand name,
> e.g. "Black and Decker Skillsaw" deducts another ten points.
>
> Placing an entirely inappropriate ad such as pool cleaning in the
> tools for sale section, minus ten points.
>
> Failure to indicate whether the original accessories and instruction
> manual come with the item costs ten points. Throwing in extra items
> not originally included like a spare blade or shop-vac attachment adds
> ten points.
>
> Use of OBO (or best offer) if you don't really mean you'll take the
> best offer you get, bad karma but otherwise hard to enforce.
>
> Putting at least three useful pieces of info in the listing
> title--e.g. item description (drill press or table saw), brand &
> model, location--ten bonus points.
>
> Offering to haul the item to a more convenient location for a possible
> purchaser's viewing, plus ten points.
>
> Including the reason for selling the product adds ten points only if
> it provides useful info. "I need the money" tells us nothing. "I'm
> selling this benchtop model only because I got the bigger fixed-base
> model from the same company," is reassuring as to your satisfaction
> with the product. Additional info like informing us you want to sell
> it before your ex-wife's lawyer finds out you have it and sells it for
> you, while entertaining, offers no bonus points.
>
> Accurately describing the amount of wear on the item adds ten points.
> "Still works" does not qualify.
>
> Use of terms like "vintage," "classic," or "antique" when you really
> mean worn-out, rusty and nasty costs ten points.
>
> Failure to observe the selling price of identical items and instead
> asking for an unrealistically high price and then making grudging
> reductions in the price over a period of weeks when everybody knew
> what they go for used all along, minus ten points.
>
> Failure to describe any significant problem costs five hundred points
> (requires reporting by purchaser once he's out of the hospital).
>
> Thirty or more negative points and CL pulls the ad. Leftover negative
> points apply to your next ad just to make sure you learned your
> lesson. Positive points don't accumulate because there is no excuse
> for a badly-written ad, this ain't rocket science.
>
> In regard to garage/yard/estate sales:
>
> If you list a strict starting time but sell all the good stuff to
> early-birds anyway, I hope it starts raining, hard, immediately after
> I return to my car. If you list a strict starting time and then don't
> open the door until half an hour later while a dozen of us bake in the
> sun watching you sip coffee through the window, I hope somebody calls
> in a bomb threat. If your estate sale ad specifies "complete
> woodworking shop with many tools" and you *really* mean the family
> grabbed all the good stuff and left a scattering of rusty old junk
> that the sale agents are asking silly amounts of money for, I hope you
> get audited for back taxes on the estate. And to the goofs who ran the
> estate sale with big displays outside last weekend and forgot to turn
> off the automatic lawn sprinklers, your tardy opening and highball
> pricing earned you that.
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:19:28 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>Absolutely. I once saw an ad in the paper for a horse, that said "nose is
>>stuffed". After spending several minutes in complete perplexity, I finally
>>realized that the ad must have been phoned in: "Knows his stuff".
>
>
>Now that one brought a chuckle. You sure the horse didn't have hay
>fever?
Once saw one that did... some sort of upper respiratory problem, anyway. Just
like a little kid with a runny nose -- except that with no sleeve to wipe his
nose on, he tried for the leg of my jeans. And of course there's a *lot* more
of it...
On Apr 20, 8:51=A0pm, "Pat" <[email protected]> wrote:
> The ad's are free allowing some people to waste their time.
After reading the OP, apparently for sellers and buyers.
I guess you just don't get the same value for FREE you used to.
Wait... maybe you do...
Robert
On Apr 21, 10:15=A0pm, Tom Veatch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:23:08 -0400, Maxwell Lol <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Job Applications and hookers pay.
>
> Couldn't you consider "hooker" ads to be "Job Applications"?
Or is it the other way around. ;-)
In article <[email protected]>, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> This ain't Antiques Roadshow folks, we're not interested in the box.
>
>But sometimes the box is worth more than the crap item they are trying to
>sell.
>
>I've pretty much given up on used tools. Our local shopper paper has ads
>for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time or two they had
>"arm saw".
My favorite was the "radio alarm saw".
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 10:25:54 -0600, "WW" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>...This has been received on
>expensive items only. If you recall the"Nigerian scam" this is the style
>used
Doesn't really have to be that expensive. I had one of those responses
to a listing for a couple of 100# propane bottles that I was asking
$125 for the pair. And he wanted me to ship to England!!
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
Ahha!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanx Doug, that one had me stumped <G>
Bill in Plano
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] wrote:
>>On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:52:11 +0100, Tom Veatch wrote
>>(in article <[email protected]>):
>>
>>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:57:48 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Our local shopper paper has ads
>>>> for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time or two they
>>>> had
>>>> "arm saw"
>>>
>>> Often that kind of "mis-listing" can be laid off on totally clueless
>>> people on the phone taking the listing. That's probably where the
>>> classic "Radio Alarm Saw" listing came from.
>>>
>>so if you call again to put it right....
>>A redial arm saw?
>>
>>I regularly see drums advertized with symbols. Again probably "operator
>>error."
>
> Yep, seen that too.
>>
>>However...
>>local post office had hand written advertisement for "Old Station
>>puppies."
>
> Took me a while... Alsatian, I guess?
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 20:23:08 -0400, Maxwell Lol <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Job Applications and hookers pay.
Couldn't you consider "hooker" ads to be "Job Applications"?
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:19:28 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>Absolutely. I once saw an ad in the paper for a horse, that said "nose is
>stuffed". After spending several minutes in complete perplexity, I finally
>realized that the ad must have been phoned in: "Knows his stuff".
Now that one brought a chuckle. You sure the horse didn't have hay
fever?
Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA
Bill Hall wrote:
> An additional 30 point deduction for Listing a Harbor Freight tool
> for 20 % more than you could buy the item at HF.
> Bill in Plano
Damn, yeah I missed that one. For that matter selling anything used for
pretty much the same price as the local big-box store is bogus, but caveat
emptor. I'm amazed at how many people think they can recover 80% of what
they paid for something when they sell it used, or who think because they
still have the original box that somehow makes the tool worth more. This
ain't Antiques Roadshow folks, we're not interested in the box.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:52:11 +0100, Tom Veatch wrote
>(in article <[email protected]>):
>
>> On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 05:57:48 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Our local shopper paper has ads
>>> for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time or two they had
>>> "arm saw"
>>
>> Often that kind of "mis-listing" can be laid off on totally clueless
>> people on the phone taking the listing. That's probably where the
>> classic "Radio Alarm Saw" listing came from.
>>
>so if you call again to put it right....
>A redial arm saw?
>
>I regularly see drums advertized with symbols. Again probably "operator
>error."
Yep, seen that too.
>
>However...
>local post office had hand written advertisement for "Old Station puppies."
Took me a while... Alsatian, I guess?
"DGDevin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> This ain't Antiques Roadshow folks, we're not interested in the box.
But sometimes the box is worth more than the crap item they are trying to
sell.
I've pretty much given up on used tools. Our local shopper paper has ads
for free. They often list "ban saw" for sale. Another time or two they had
"arm saw".